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06-29-2015, 07:31 PM
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Moderator
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Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 8,002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morpheus32
Thank you. I am feeling like a bit of a broken record trying to explain how we maintain weapons in the military. I guess some people just can't take in the concepts we are doing here. I think it would be more of a insult to the Canadian tax payer if we did not have a life cycle plan and viewed them as disposable. The cost would be well over $6500 if we replaced them every time they got damaged.
Having parts, and a repair process is critical to keeping the rifle in service for 30 years.
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It would appear you think Colt is providing a "life cycle" plan for repairing rifles "every time they got damaged". I'm sure there is a scheduled maintenance plan of sorts, a certain number of barrels per gun over the 30 years, but your posting like any time the gun gets damaged/wore out/needs maintenance/etc., it will just get serviced for free. Such costs are cearly not included in the $6,500.00, maybe there in lies the confusion as to why you think its an acceptable cost.
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06-29-2015, 09:37 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trochu
It would appear you think Colt is providing a "life cycle" plan for repairing rifles "every time they got damaged". I'm sure there is a scheduled maintenance plan of sorts, a certain number of barrels per gun over the 30 years, but your posting like any time the gun gets damaged/wore out/needs maintenance/etc., it will just get serviced for free. Such costs are cearly not included in the $6,500.00, maybe there in lies the confusion as to why you think its an acceptable cost.
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The spare parts, barrels and tooling are part of the price. The rebuild and depot level repair are part of the price over the lifespan of the rifle. so for the price, you get the rifle, all the parts you need for 30 years and the process to have depot ie factory level repair. If you just buy a rifle and have zero maintenance plans, how to you ensure the rifle is remains serviceable through its 30 years? Pay as you go? Your paying it forward with this option for the rifle. What happens if the rifle you buy is commercial off the shelf and the manufacture stops making it or the parts you need? How do you keep the rifles serviceable? who will do the repairs? How much will it cost? Have you had a factory repair job for your rifle? It takes months and the costs can be high. You have to have a plan how you will keep the rifle operational for the military. The rifle belongs to the military and is returned when a person leaves the ranger. They don't get to keep them.
All weapons are managed the same. We have pools of parts and a process to do repairs at the armourer and depot level. So a machine gun might cost $1000 but I am sure we have $5000 in parts, barrels and the 30 year lifecycle plan for rebuild. So why would we do it differently for a bolt action rifle? Our sniper rifles are managed the same way. In fact all weapons are done this way. Armourer repair and inspections are done by our military weapons technicians and depot is done by colt canada.
I am curious how you would maintain the operational capabilities of this rifle over 30 years. Buying a Rem 700 is not a guarantee of parts or maintenance.
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06-30-2015, 04:41 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 135
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Cool rifle, but god that stock is awful. Put a proper walnut stock like the CZ entry or a pepper laminate like the Ruger.
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06-30-2015, 05:21 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ft. McMurray
Posts: 38,872
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RatFink
Cool rifle, but god that stock is awful. Put a proper walnut stock like the CZ entry or a pepper laminate like the Ruger.
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No matter whose stock was on the rifle if would have ended up that colour as per the people that had a hand in the build specs, which were the rangers themselves .
Cat
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Anytime I figure I've got this long range thing figured out, I just strap into the sling and irons and remind myself that I don't!
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06-30-2015, 07:43 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 135
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I had an after thought that this was more of a function over form design choice! About the only place in the world that a military issued rifle isn't camouflaged.
Quote:
Originally Posted by catnthehat
No matter whose stock was on the rifle if would have ended up that colour as per the people that had a hand in the build specs, which were the rangers themselves .
Cat
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06-30-2015, 08:22 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RatFink
I had an after thought that this was more of a function over form design choice! About the only place in the world that a military issued rifle isn't camouflaged.
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As mentioned, not for fighting. The SAR tech rifle is orange and the Rangers wear a red hoodie and hat as a uniform so it kind of fits.
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07-01-2015, 02:00 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Lethbridge
Posts: 2,045
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morpheus32
The spare parts, barrels and tooling are part of the price. The rebuild and depot level repair are part of the price over the lifespan of the rifle. so for the price, you get the rifle, all the parts you need for 30 years and the process to have depot ie factory level repair. If you just buy a rifle and have zero maintenance plans, how to you ensure the rifle is remains serviceable through its 30 years? Pay as you go? Your paying it forward with this option for the rifle. What happens if the rifle you buy is commercial off the shelf and the manufacture stops making it or the parts you need? How do you keep the rifles serviceable? who will do the repairs? How much will it cost? Have you had a factory repair job for your rifle? It takes months and the costs can be high. You have to have a plan how you will keep the rifle operational for the military. The rifle belongs to the military and is returned when a person leaves the ranger. They don't get to keep them.
All weapons are managed the same. We have pools of parts and a process to do repairs at the armourer and depot level. So a machine gun might cost $1000 but I am sure we have $5000 in parts, barrels and the 30 year lifecycle plan for rebuild. So why would we do it differently for a bolt action rifle? Our sniper rifles are managed the same way. In fact all weapons are done this way. Armourer repair and inspections are done by our military weapons technicians and depot is done by colt canada.
I am curious how you would maintain the operational capabilities of this rifle over 30 years. Buying a Rem 700 is not a guarantee of parts or maintenance.
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As i understand it, slowly but surely lol, the initial cost is licensing and tool up, for colt Canada, the initial cost is high because of this? Once production is in full swing, after the initial 1000 rifles, costs will drop.
Any competent gunsmith can and would give their left nut to get this contract, but I understand the govt wants some stability and reliability for the end product, hell, it only took them 30 years to get it done, I hope it works out for the Rangers.. Govt spent 2 billion on a useless registry for nothing, what's 50 mil for something that counts, peanuts in dip **** land.
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07-01-2015, 02:02 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sikwhiskey
As i understand it, slowly but surely lol, the initial cost is licensing and tool up, for colt Canada, the initial cost is high because of this? Once production is in full swing, after the initial 1000 rifles, costs will drop.
Any competent gunsmith can and would give their left nut to get this contract, but I understand the govt wants some stability and reliability for the end product, hell, it only took them 30 years to get it done, I hope it works out for the Rangers.. Govt spent 2 billion on a useless registry for nothing, what's 50 mil for something that counts, peanuts in dip **** land.
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The cost is normally fixed for the delivery of the product within the timelines. I don't have the contract nor the tender in front of me however that is normally how they do it. Delivery within the timelines laid out in the tender at a fixed price. So it might something like delivery of X rifles a month for Y number of months.
I think it will work out fine for the Rangers. The Enfields did there duty but in the end, parts had finally run out so they had to tender a replacement.
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09-03-2016, 11:30 PM
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Banned
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09-04-2016, 08:12 AM
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Banned
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bb356
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That's $4800 per rifle. Are they that good?
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09-04-2016, 08:41 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,174
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What a joke.
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Former Ford Fan
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09-04-2016, 09:08 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Dreadful Valley
Posts: 14,779
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newview01
That's $4800 per rifle. Are they that good?
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One must remember that our govt had to pay to get the licensing rights from Sako/Tikka, that comes with a hefty price tag.
Doesn't anyone remember the scandals of the past where things like hammers and light bulbs were acquired by the government at exhorbadant prices?
These rifles are a bargain compared to those items.
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09-05-2016, 05:19 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: S.E. British Columbia
Posts: 4,579
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Seems like a very practical choice to me. Tikka is good gear. Lam stock. The Ranger's model has been cold tested.
Plus it'll take the NATO 7.62 as well as readily available hunting W308.
Any info on sights or optics?
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09-05-2016, 05:29 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered user
What a joke.
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Not really, awesome weapon but it will need to be in the hands of the troops for a year or two to work out the bugs.
There will be issues as with anything new and exposed to what they put these rifle through.
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09-05-2016, 07:51 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 58thecat
Not really, awesome weapon but it will need to be in the hands of the troops for a year or two to work out the bugs.
There will be issues as with anything new and exposed to what they put these rifle through.
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How is it awesome? It's just a bolt gun, won't do anything the old smelly or any other off the rack bolt rifle will do. 5 grand a pop? Ooooch!
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09-06-2016, 12:43 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered user
How is it awesome? It's just a bolt gun, won't do anything the old smelly or any other off the rack bolt rifle will do. 5 grand a pop? Ooooch!
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Awesome as in new to those troops, anticipation of shooting the new rifle etc, perhaps your right old Lee could do the job but other variables play in, 7.62 or 308 is standard in our forces so supply should be there.
I remember when we phased out the FN's and the first crate of C7's arrived, we opened the wrapping, cleaned 'em, in varsol just to have some turn white ' ish in color, I remember the SgtMajor tearing us a new arse, then came the forestocks falling off, then came the training and off to the range just to have feeding issues, mag issues, on and on and on but we got through this and now got a battle proven weapon at what cost???
These fellas hopefully wont go through that process hopefully and enjoy the weapon issued to them...time will tell.
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09-06-2016, 01:17 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Uh, guess? :)
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RED "highly visible" laminate.... Our Rangers lose a lot of rifles?? Can't see a brown rifle when they put them down in the snow? What army wants highly visible rifles? wait a minute... they wear red hoodies? It's a fashion statement. Cripes.... So they are what we are basing our sovereignty claims on?
Army surplus enfields did them for 50 years. Now they need $4800 bolt action rifles for bear defense and hunting. Not one of those is ever going to be fired at a Russian. Army specifies anything, add millions to the price. I swear, if they decided to just give them bear spray the price would be $1200 per can.
-Grumpy old man.
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09-06-2016, 01:54 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,869
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okotokian
RED "highly visible" laminate.... Our Rangers lose a lot of rifles?? Can't see a brown rifle when they put them down in the snow? What army wants highly visible rifles? wait a minute... they wear red hoodies? It's a fashion statement. Cripes.... So they are what we are basing our sovereignty claims on?
Army surplus enfields did them for 50 years. Now they need $4800 bolt action rifles for bear defense and hunting. Not one of those is ever going to be fired at a Russian. Army specifies anything, add millions to the price. I swear, if they decided to just give them bear spray the price would be $1200 per can.
-Grumpy old man.
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Why wouldn't they have conspicuous rifles it makes perfect sense. Also they want to carry a good rifle and a 1000 dollar tikka is that. We don't need a helicopter style procurement with all kinds of contingency and spare part scenario and what happens in 30 years and all that. Likes it's some kind of continuing animal like a sea king
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09-06-2016, 02:06 PM
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Banned
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I've priced flooring on the Suffield Base, and I can assure you that there is no price jump for the military. I priced competitively and still did not get the job. So there must be a good reason for these to be priced that high. I wonder if X amount of spare parts are shipped with each rifle.
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09-06-2016, 02:10 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 954
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered user
I'll bet one of those will cost twice as much as a C7 but I guess the gubby doesn't want our first line of defence toting scary army guns.
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Without armorers and gunsmiths a bolt gun makes way more sense for the rangers.
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09-06-2016, 02:34 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Uh, guess? :)
Posts: 26,739
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandHeart
Without armorers and gunsmiths a bolt gun makes way more sense for the rangers.
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Plus I suspect the most use these babies will get is the guys they are assigned to going hunting.
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09-06-2016, 02:38 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2013
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Can you imagine if the military bought Tikka's instead of the Sako's? There would be shattered mags and bolt shrouds everywhere the first winter.
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09-06-2016, 02:58 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2016
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Maybe after the first winter they can buy the Lee #4's back at $12.000 bucks a pop, Ha.
Pretty hard to match the old work horse of good wood and real steel.
Probably too late at my age too be a ranger, nothing wrong with dreaming though.
Pal Don
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09-06-2016, 03:22 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,869
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergerboy
Can you imagine if the military bought Tikka's instead of the Sako's? There would be shattered mags and bolt shrouds everywhere the first winter.
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Please tell me how you know that. Plus they are copy of Tikka's not Sako's.
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09-06-2016, 03:33 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: rollyview
Posts: 7,860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergerboy
Can you imagine if the military bought Tikka's instead of the Sako's? There would be shattered mags and bolt shrouds everywhere the first winter.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marxman
Please tell me how you know that. Plus they are copy of Tikka's not Sako's.
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yup, plastic bolt shrouds, plastic mags, aluminum recoil lugs...
they bought a real gem
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09-06-2016, 03:37 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Uh, guess? :)
Posts: 26,739
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marxman
Please tell me how you know that. Plus they are copy of Tikka's not Sako's.
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Holy crap, we are paying $4800 for plastic trigger guards??? LOL
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09-06-2016, 04:02 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marxman
Please tell me how you know that. Plus they are copy of Tikka's not Sako's.
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By this.
http://ottawacitizen.com/news/nation...nadian-rangers
Here it is – the new Sako rifle for the Canadian Rangers
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When in doubt, use full throttle. It may not improve the situation, but it will end the suspense.
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09-06-2016, 04:04 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fish_e_o
yup, plastic bolt shrouds, plastic mags, aluminum recoil lugs...
they bought a real gem
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I forgot about the aluminum separate recoil lugs. Good thing they only need a minute of polar bear.
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When in doubt, use full throttle. It may not improve the situation, but it will end the suspense.
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09-06-2016, 04:30 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,869
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergerboy
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That article doesnt say anything about plastic bolt shrouds or magazines. It does say though that the rifle is based on a t3 ctr thats a tikka
Last edited by marxman; 09-06-2016 at 04:35 PM.
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09-06-2016, 04:53 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: In your personal space.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marxman
That article doesnt say anything about plastic bolt shrouds or magazines. It does say though that the rifle is based on a t3 ctr thats a tikka
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No one in the entire thread said the rifle has plastic anything. Many aftermarket actions are based on rem 700s. They are not Remington products.
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When in doubt, use full throttle. It may not improve the situation, but it will end the suspense.
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