Changes for all

The Spruce · #1 07-14-2016, 04:04 PM

Something to stew over. Not going to be easy to sell a line anymore. Be diligent with your records this season folks.

HunterDave · #2 07-14-2016, 05:15 PM

Interesting stuff, thanks for posting.

Why ask for fur receipts? It won't include mange coyotes and other damaged fur that doesn't get sold. My declaration is more accurate than my receipts.

They are going to start enforcing taking trap lines if there's no fur production in one year?

KegRiver · #3 07-14-2016, 05:54 PM

Pandering to the complainers again are they.

They are understaffed and overworked as it is. This is just another "from the top" decision that the front line people have no time or resources to enforce.

The biggest offenders, outfitters who buy trap lines as exclusive hunting territories have friends in high places and they will get a pass for obvious reasons.

A few honest trappers will loose their lines and the problem will continue unabated.

Am I jaded, you bet. After sixty years of seeing how it works I absolutely am jaded.
I've seen too many little guys get spanked for a little of nothing while the big offenders go about their business untouched. And the biggest of them all are top government people.

Paying top dollar does not buy the best of the best, it only buys the most successful crooks.

nube · #4 07-14-2016, 07:31 PM

I don't like #2. T me it reads I can sell my line but there is no gaurantee the guy buying it will be given the line which to me means there is no way anyone would hand over any money for a line if they were not gauranteed to get it and therefore no sale lol
Sounds like it will all be placed back into the Govt hands and done with what they may.....

Also the other new change that if you die as the senior holder your family can no longer trap unless they have a license. If they do not have a license does this mean they take the line from you and put it up for auction? None of my family has a license right now as my kids are too young and my wife doesn't want to get a license as it's not her passion like mine. Would be sad to buy a line and have it stripped from you and you loose all that money you put into buying a line.....

They want fur sale receipts as it is important in seeing if fur species management is being done correctly? lol That's a huge joke. There are so many variables there I won't even get into. What a crock of crap.......

If the biologist has an issue with what is going on with your line he can strip it from you and or provide a probation period and make you take courses or take a JR on? Hope you don't get a biologist with an attitude and wants to make you take a pile of courses for no reason.......

Looks like if you forget to submit a fur harvest by Sept 30th you can loose your line. I hope I don't get forgetful the older I get or my line is gone.......

If you fail to renew your license by Sept 30th again your line can be stripped from you? BS. Hopefully a friendly reminder is given if your again brain does not remember.......

Licenses will be given to Resident trappers for Private and crown land not in an RFMA. I like that. I know it can be done now to trap crown land not in an RFMA but it is not easy to get it. Hopefully this change is that you can trap all crown land and it is an easier process......

I like that they want to make changes to make sure guys are trapping. I agree with that but in doing so it sounds like it can possibly be a hassle for a lot of reasons with some new changes. A lot of this kinds of info worries me to be honest.

Also I would like to know how they are making this known to trappers. If you are not looking on AO right now you wouldn't have a clue. Where is my registered letter telling me to keep my fur receipts from this year and I may need to provide them?
If trappers are not notified of these changes the correct way I see some major issues in the future

HunterDave · #5 07-14-2016, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Why ask for fur receipts? It won't include mange coyotes and other damaged fur that doesn't get sold. My declaration is more accurate than my receipts.

Never mind, the receipts are likely to prove that you actually caught the fur that you declare. Not sure why they'd want them from resident trappers though.

Marty S · #6 07-14-2016, 11:30 PM

It could prove to be quite comical for putting some folks under the scope. We have some very creative trappers these days. I wonder what they will do with the info? Overall though, seems like a senseless thing, the fish cops can't even wade through the records that we currently submit.

Lefty-Canuck · #7 07-15-2016, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Never mind, the receipts are likely to prove that you actually caught the fur that you declare. Not sure why they'd want them from resident trappers though.

Government wants their cut of your take.

LC

Talking moose · #8 07-15-2016, 06:37 AM

"The biggest offenders, outfitters who buy trap lines as exclusive hunting territories have friends in high places and they will get a pass for obvious reasons"

How does an outfitter keep hunters off his line?

58thecat · #9 07-15-2016, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talking moose

"The biggest offenders, outfitters who buy trap lines as exclusive hunting territories have friends in high places and they will get a pass for obvious reasons"

How does an outfitter keep hunters off his line?

He does this by having tree stands, blinds, etc all over the area in which any "nice" hunter sees this would back out of the area and let those who already occupy it have a great enjoyable hunt, now it never stops the other wanker hunter who would shinny up a tree right beside you, light up a smoke and say "howdy" ...

KegRiver has it pretty much spot on in his post.

Life goes on....

Talking moose · #10 07-15-2016, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 58thecat

He does this by having tree stands, blinds, etc all over the area in which any "nice" hunter sees this would back out of the area and let those who already occupy it have a great enjoyable hunt, now it never stops the other wanker hunter who would shinny up a tree right beside you, light up a smoke and say "howdy" ...

KegRiver has it pretty much spot on in his post.

Life goes on....

Makes sense. wont work for a local to the area(like myself) who knows what's going on. But I'm sure a few would try....

martinnordegg · #11 07-15-2016, 07:47 AM

Looks like the ATA meeting with the Minister went real well.

martinnordegg · #12 07-15-2016, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nube

I don't like #2. T me it reads I can sell my line but there is no gaurantee the guy buying it will be given the line which to me means there is no way anyone would hand over any money for a line if they were not gauranteed to get it and therefore no sale lol
Sounds like it will all be placed back into the Govt hands and done with what they may.....

Using a lawyer and putting the money in trust will work.

Also the other new change that if you die as the senior holder your family can no longer trap unless they have a license. If they do not have a license does this mean they take the line from you and put it up for auction? None of my family has a license right now as my kids are too young and my wife doesn't want to get a license as it's not her passion like mine. Would be sad to buy a line and have it stripped from you and you loose all that money you put into buying a line.....

Always have an exit strategy to protect your assets. It may be prudent to formally have your Wife take the ATA Course and get a licence. She will also have to show fur sales as well though. Finding a qualified buyer for lines will be difficult. It will take a Jr. Partner a few years to qualify.

They want fur sale receipts as it is important in seeing if fur species management is being done correctly? lol That's a huge joke. There are so many variables there I won't even get into. What a crock of crap.......

Just another one of the changes. No choice here.

If the biologist has an issue with what is going on with your line he can strip it from you and or provide a probation period and make you take courses or take a JR on? Hope you don't get a biologist with an attitude and wants to make you take a pile of courses for no reason.......

We have one with a big attitude here which I experienced during the transfer of our line. It's very sad to say but I'm glad we got out of our line when we did.

Looks like if you forget to submit a fur harvest by Sept 30th you can loose your line. I hope I don't get forgetful the older I get or my line is gone.......

If you fail to renew your license by Sept 30th again your line can be stripped from you? BS. Hopefully a friendly reminder is given if your again brain does not remember.......

This use to be the deadline date for renewal so I guess now they are going to enforce it.

Licenses will be given to Resident trappers for Private and crown land not in an RFMA. I like that. I know it can be done now to trap crown land not in an RFMA but it is not easy to get it. Hopefully this change is that you can trap all crown land and it is an easier process......

I like that they want to make changes to make sure guys are trapping. I agree with that but in doing so it sounds like it can possibly be a hassle for a lot of reasons with some new changes. A lot of this kinds of info worries me to be honest.

Also I would like to know how they are making this known to trappers. If you are not looking on AO right now you wouldn't have a clue. Where is my registered letter telling me to keep my fur receipts from this year and I may need to provide them?
If trappers are not notified of these changes the correct way I see some major issues in the future

I am sure all RFMA holders will get a notice in the mail as we did concerning the Public Land Issues. Or they could hand it out when you renew.

JMO some of the "changes" were in place previously and now going to be enforced. Some of them may ensure lines are trapped properly and are active. Some good, some bad but that's the way it is I guess.

BEST GET TO KNOW THE BIOLOGIST THAT WILL BE ADMINISTRATING YOUR LINE.

Marty S · #13 07-15-2016, 08:14 AM

We got it better than the poor saps in Ontario, maybe too good tho. They have quotas that have to be filled annually or they will lose their lines, and on top of filling their quotas, they MUST sell all their fur in that season. So like now, when beaver are practically worthless, you must trap them, which isn't all bad, it's okay, BUT you are forced to sell them for practically nothing, when instead you could either hold them for a more favourable price another year, or do something more creative such as tan and build hats, novelties, etc.

martinnordegg · #14 07-15-2016, 08:18 AM

You are right Marty it is still a better system here. Also certainly better than the free-for-all they have when there are no RFMA's in place.

martinnordegg · #15 07-15-2016, 09:13 AM

After reading the content again it says AEP will no longer accept conditional relinquishments.

That means if Nube wants Drake to take over the line he has to unconditionally relinquish it. Then according to the Administration section ALL vacant lines (those relinquished) will be posted from June 1-July 31 and applications to take over the lines are open to anyone qualified to hold a Senior status on RFMA's.

So I could apply for the line and if the Biologist deemed me more qualified than Drake the line would go to me with no consideration for compensation to the previous holder (Nube).

Vacant lines are also defined as those lines where the Senior Holder has passed away.

This is in effect from 2017 on.

Correct me if I am reading this wrong.

Talking moose · #16 07-15-2016, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinnordegg

After reading the content again it says AEP will no longer accept conditional relinquishments.

That means if Nube wants Drake to take over the line he has to unconditionally relinquish it. Then according to the Administration section ALL vacant lines (those relinquished) will be posted from June 1-July 31 and applications to take over the lines are open to anyone qualified to hold a Senior status on RFMA's.

So I could apply for the line and if the Biologist deemed me more qualified than Drake the line would go to me with no consideration for compensation to the previous holder (Nube).

Vacant lines are also defined as those lines where the Senior Holder has passed away.

This is in effect from 2017 on.

Correct me if I am reading this wrong.

Is this a bad thing? Seems like it might open it up to people with no connections and lines may go to a more qualified person rather than all the lines staying in the existing families or being sold to deep pocketed people using it more for a getaway retreat rather than for what it's intended.
I mean, now everyone would have a fair shake at obtaining it.....

nube · #17 07-15-2016, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinnordegg

After reading the content again it says AEP will no longer accept conditional relinquishments.

That means if Nube wants Drake to take over the line he has to unconditionally relinquish it. Then according to the Administration section ALL vacant lines (those relinquished) will be posted from June 1-July 31 and applications to take over the lines are open to anyone qualified to hold a Senior status on RFMA's.

So I could apply for the line and if the Biologist deemed me more qualified than Drake the line would go to me with no consideration for compensation to the previous holder (Nube).

Vacant lines are also defined as those lines where the Senior Holder has passed away.

This is in effect from 2017 on.

Correct me if I am reading this wrong.

That's what I was saying..... I'm ****ed

nube · #18 07-15-2016, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talking moose

Is this a bad thing? Seems like it might open it up to people with no connections and lines may go to a more qualified person rather than all the lines staying in the existing families or being sold to deep pocketed people using it more for a getaway retreat rather than for what it's intended.
I mean, now everyone would have a fair shake at obtaining it.....

Um ya it's a bad thing. unless you got your line for free and don't need to get your money back out of it.....
If I buy a line for 50K and you go to sell it and the gov't wants to bend you over and give it to someone else you are out 50K. That aint right

Talking moose · #19 07-15-2016, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nube

Um ya it's a bad thing. unless you got your line for free and don't need to get your money back out of it.....
If I buy a line for 50K and you go to sell it and the gov't wants to bend you over and give it to someone else you are out 50K. That aint right

Ahh ok, I see, you would have no say in asking price. Ya, not good. Could a line not be assessed a value? Taking into consideration the original amount paid for line, improvements made, sheds built, traps and sleds included etc... And owner would be gaurenteed so much or no sale? Would something like that work?

martinnordegg · #20 07-15-2016, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talking moose

Ahh ok, I see, you would have no say in asking price. Ya, not good. Could a line not be assessed a value? Taking into consideration the original amount paid for line, improvements made, sheds built, traps and sleds included etc... And owner would be gaurenteed so much or no sale? Would something like that work?

AEP made it very clear they do not care about the assets or compensation to the Senior Holder if the line is relinquished. When we transferred ours prior to this the same message was conveyed.

I guarantee they won't put themselves in the middle of a valuation of assets. Proof is in the content of the documents posted above.

Talking moose · #21 07-15-2016, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinnordegg

AEP made it very clear they do not care about the assets or compensation to the Senior Holder if the line is relinquished. When we transferred ours prior to this the same message was conveyed.

I guarantee they won't put themselves in the middle of a valuation of assets. Proof is in the content of the documents posted above.

Well than this does suck!

nube · #22 07-15-2016, 10:02 AM

Why would they value it at any dollar? They won't all they care about it having someone run the line the way they want it. They would give it to whoever they want and you will get nothing for your line. Who do we B!tch too? Anyone have any contact info?
As far as I see it the ATA needs a punch in the teeth on this as well. Not a whisper as to what was going on from them. Doesn't look like they fought very hard for our rights either. Sorry if that offends as I know they do some good for us but this is huge and in my mind they have dropped the ball in a big way.

The only possitive I see on this is I will be putting in every year for mutiple lines now and might be able to pick up a free line now. Hope it's not one of your guy's lines because you forgot to renew before Sept, caught too many of one species, got in a fight with your bio and yada yada yada...........

martinnordegg · #23 07-15-2016, 10:35 AM

Basically now an RFMA isn't worth anything regardless of the assets and improvements.

There will be a few years until qualified Juniors meet the requirements to be a Senior Holder.

I guess it puts everyone on the same playing field including the ATA President and Executive if they want to pass on their trapline to Sons and Grandsons. There could be a more qualified candidate making application as well. I hope they think about that before the effective date in 2017 rolls around.

nube · #24 07-15-2016, 11:05 AM

Not to mention the lawsuit if the bios think some young kid that has hung out with grandpa and caught a few weasels has more experience than another full time trapper that has an RFMA already.

Guess guys like you Martinnordegg will have no problem getting a line if you want one again. Heck I could use another one myself. Kinda hard to argue that we don't have more experience than a guy trying to get his first line. Should be a gimmee for us.

Big Grey Wolf · #25 07-15-2016, 11:41 AM

Guys it would make a good legal case for your lawyer when you get to old to run your line. Just as Nube has indicated, if you have $100K in assets on a line with good quality cabins, find it hard to believe a court judge would approve the Crown to steal your money by giving your quality line to one of their good friends instead of your young grandson who has just started trapping.

D4l3k · #26 07-15-2016, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

Guys it would make a good legal case for your lawyer when you get to old to run your line. Just as Nube has indicated, if you have $100K in assets on a line with good quality cabins, find it hard to believe a court judge would approve the Crown to steal your money by giving your quality line to one of their good friends instead of your young grandson who has just started trapping.

unfortunately they are not stealing your money, you still own those assets, but now you need to hope the new owner of the line will buy them from you (who every they decide is the best new senior)

the problem is, that the new owner can offer you $1 for them and if you don't sell them, they are now illegal structures, and you have to remove them

people that payed big bucks for lines with nice assets are going to get screwed over big time, but they have been talking about doing this for years and years already, its not really a surprise to me

im sure if you have a junior that has worked the line for several years they will get priority for taking it over, just like its always been

they should go after grazing leases, that is much worst then traplines

admin · #27 07-15-2016, 12:13 PM

Rob Miskosky is a Director for Zone 2 of the ATA. He asked me to post this here for everybody to read. It is what he sent out to all of his Presidents in Zone 2, which are Sundre, Rocky Mountain House, Drayton Valley, Edson, Whitecourt, Hinton and Grande Cache. If you want to provide him with your concerns, he will make sure they are heard.

Hi everybody,

Attached here is what is being called the Trapping Interim Administration Reference Document. This is a document designed by Alberta's Fur Management Team, comprised of Dave Moyles (Peace River); Nils Anderson (Grande Prairie); Kevin Downing (High Prairie); Anne Hubbs (Rocky Mtn House); Dave Hobson (Edson); Maria Didkowsky (Blairemore); Joann Skilnick (Fort Mac); and Dave Kay (Policy-Edm).

The purpose of the document is to provide direction to Alberta's biologists where trapline management in Alberta is concerned. While the ATA has not had input into the design of this "interim" document, we have been assured that we will have a place on the Fur Management Team moving forward, with our first meeting scheduled for September.

Pressure has been placed on the Fur Management Team to have something in place for the new 2016 licensing term, as both biologists and trappers have been frustrated without set policies in place. What is written in the document has been written in haste and is not set in stone. However, it is a guideline to be used in the short term.

While some of what is written within the document will make your blood boil, much of it is what we've been asking for since the Trapping in the 21st Century discussions took place 10 years or more ago. It is a guideline to put "active" trappers on RFMAs and remove those that are using traplines for reasons other than trapping. It is also a means to get trappers that aren't using their traplines back to using them.

In our estimation, and we have made this known to the Fur Management Team, the transfer and relinquishment of traplines falls short within the document. There are no provisions for the sale of traplines, which we will all find unsuitable for obvious reasons. The ATA takes a serious position regarding trapline transfers and relinquishments and we will be working hard to protect our investments moving forward. I have been assured by the Fur Management Team that trapline transfers and relinquishments are "definitely" open for discussion.

Please read the attached documents and circulate amongst your membership. Please provide myself or Rene Roy with any and all feedback you receive as soon as possible. This is important!! We need to know what concerns there are as we move forward, prior to meeting with the Fur Management Team, which will allow us to negotiate final policies that we can all live with.

Rob Miskosky

pikeslayer22 · #28 07-15-2016, 01:01 PM

Having just purchased a line 2 years ago it doesn't seem like any of this has changed to much. Like someone already stated a lot of this was in the Trapping Reg's forever and not enforced.

As far as the fur sales receipt goes on a year like this the only thing I sent into auctions was Coyotes. Do they expect us to give away our fur???

The guys that have lines and don't trap them just buy the furs from real trappers already so they have sales receipts.

antlercarver · #29 07-15-2016, 01:57 PM

I had a registered line for many years and my Dad also had a different line for a long time. I think a line is worth in dollars what that line can produce in dollars in maybe 3 years. The system has been abused in several ways for the last 40 years. It does not make sense to have truck,quads, snow machines, guns, traps, chain saws, cabins, skinning shack worth 100k and more, and time invested to harvest 3-5k of fur.
It has become a playground and people have found several ways to use existing rules to have their own playground
Presently I think 80% or more of line holders are this way, there are others who use a line as a true source of part time income.
Maybe the law makers dont have it 100% right but line holders brought this on themselves.

nube · #30 07-15-2016, 03:15 PM

"While some of what is written within the document will make your blood boil, much of it is what we've been asking for since the Trapping in the 21st Century discussions took place 10 years or more ago."

We've been asking for this? Somehow I do not think any of us would be asking for most of what i am seeing and if we did then we all need our heads checked.

We may have asked for some changes to get some lines used but we didn't need to make it possible for a line to not be worth didly squat and to be easily taken from you.

Heck they could have made it pretty simple that you needed to trap your line every year and if not then put your line on an open invitation for a JR to come work it untill you want to get back to trapping it again or sell it. Even that has issues where a guy can just buy a couple pieces fur from the local resident trapper and claim them from his line. What's next, mandatory quota like out east where you loose your line if you don't catch 300 beaver a year.

"Pressure has been placed on the Fur Management Team to have something in place for the new 2016 licensing term,"

Well Geez nothing like a quick change in a hurry before the season starts. Not like any new laws are easily discarded if we see an issue down the road.....like that will happen.