Question for the HR guys

[Bigwoodsman]

An employee walks into an office and demands to be laid off. The request is granted, and he leaves immediately. Now he is seeking termination and severance pay. What is he entitled too if anything? I'm thinking if anything at all it would be 2 week Termination pay, for the amount of notice that he would should have given.

BW

[DiabeticKripple]

Pretty sure companies don't have to give severance. He is entitled to his two weeks and since he was "laid off" he can claim EI

[Peter Abelard]

Originally Posted by Bigwoodsman

An employee walks into an office and demands to be laid off.

Demands?

Demanding people can expect to receive the bare minimum due them, and nothing more.

[Bigwoodsman]

Originally Posted by Peter Abelard

Demands?

Demanding people can expect to receive the bare minimum due them, and nothing more.

Yes, demands, I was given three options, Lay off, assign another Supervisor, or terminate. He was upset with a Supervisors written reprimand, which I supported and was due, based on previous documented verbal warnings.

BW

[Okotokian]

You made the mistake of agreeing to his request. Should have told him to resign. I'm assuming he wanted you to do the dirty deed so that he could get EI more easily. Or perhaps he knew he would come back with this request now. I would have gotten him to sign a release first in which it would be clear that he asked to be terminated and in which he gives up any claims to notice. Oh well, water under the bridge now.

How long was he with you? If you want to just get rid of the problem pay him the notice required by statute here http://work.alberta.ca/documents/Ter...emp-Layoff.pdf

But the guy sounds like a jerk, so you could also tell him to go pound sand and get himself a lawyer. He might win in the end but it can take a year or two, lots and lots of hassle, and legal costs. Talk to your lawyers. hey might be able to contend that the employee effectively terminated the employment contract with his demand. Not sure about that one as I'm not a lawyer.

[JustBen]

Originally Posted by Bigwoodsman

Yes, demands, I was given three options, Lay off, assign another Supervisor, or terminate. He was upset with a Supervisors written reprimand, which I supported and was due, based on previous documented verbal warnings.

BW

I would have written him up again for insubordination. Then termination with cause wouldn't be so hard...

[Hat in the Cat]

Two can play the game of nothing in writing (so long as you did not produce anything in writing)...

Tell him you did not lay him off and he was let go for job abandonment for not showing up for shift. Once he realizes he will lose out on his EI he may choose not to play the game any longer.

[Grizzly Adams]

Why would you lay a guy off, if he wanted to leave ?

Grizz

[Peter Abelard]

Originally Posted by Bigwoodsman

Yes, demands, I was given three options, Lay off, assign another Supervisor, or terminate. He was upset with a Supervisors written reprimand, which I supported and was due, based on previous documented verbal warnings.
BW

Sounds like a Jerk.

[Scotty454]

All an employee is entitled to is proper notice based on the length of their employment, or pay in lieu of notice. Severance is, and always has been a courtesy given by a company as a gesture of goodwill. It has never been mandated by law.

See: https://work.alberta.ca/documents/Te...emp-Layoff.pdf

[Peter Abelard]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

You made the mistake of agreeing to his request. Should have told him to resign.

Here's how I would have handled it:

"Jeez dude, your situation really sucks. Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to reassign you, and we're unable to lay-off-on-demand, or everyone would do it (ha ha ha). You're not left with great options here, but it doesn't look like things are going to get better between you and [current supervisor]. It's even possible things may get worse. Ultimately, it's up to you what you do, but for the sake of your peace of mind, it may even be in your best interest to move on on your own. ...... Of course, it's up to you, but the options before you don't look to favorable from where I'm sitting. In the meantime, you're still in a sticky situation. If things do get too tense, don't forget we have counselling available via our EAP program. I hope things work out well and please let me know if you want to chat again".

(I'm not in HR, but did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night)

[Roughneck12]

He effectively quit. So nada.

[Okotokian]

I'm assuming he now has a Record of Employment completed by your company in his hands that shows the reason for termination as "layoff", correct? If so it's not a "he said-she said" situation anymore. Again, I think your choices are 1) make him take you to court and make it long and painful, or 2) pay him the minimum and look at it as a small price to pay for getting a &#^# out of your company.

[wellpastcold]

Originally Posted by Bigwoodsman

Yes, demands, I was given three options, Lay off, assign another Supervisor, or terminate. He was upset with a Supervisors written reprimand, which I supported and was due, based on previous documented verbal warnings.

BW

You definitely picked the wrong option. Assuming you were not going to fire him for the reprimand / written warning, you can not lay him off without notice or severance. Sure it may have seemed like the easy way out at the time, but it gave the individual the ability to claim severance. Maybe it is not the worst thing that could happen. Pay the individual for the notice period and good riddance. Next time wait for a resignation.

[Ken3134]

Originally Posted by Bigwoodsman

An employee walks into an office and demands to be laid off. The request is granted, and he leaves immediately. Now he is seeking termination and severance pay. What is he entitled too if anything? I'm thinking if anything at all it would be 2 week Termination pay, for the amount of notice that he would should have given.

BW

Well..... Where to start with this? As an employer my employees have rights that we respect, and we go above and beyond to create a positive work environment. That being said an employee who " demands" will be in for a reality check. This could spin a couple of different directions..... One thing people don't realize is that severance pay is not simple and easy to get from a past employer, let them work for it! If this employee has little seniority it won't amount to much anyway, and not worth them pursuing it. I'd ignore the request or correspondence from the employee.

[bschlinker]

My first comment is that you always need to be careful when maneuvering around labor laws. I understand you were trying to be the "nice guy" but this has the potential to cost you money and/or really bite you in the arse...

At this point, if you can justify the layoff (which you will want to be sure you can to cover yourself, in the event the employee tries to challenge it). You will then need to issue him a formal lay-off notice and highlight a few specific clauses of the labor code (If memory serves me correct its: 62, 63, 64). You are not required to give him immediate termination/severance pay, and as outlined in your layoff letter which you review with him and get him to sign, you will then have up to 60 days in which to "recall" the employee back to work. Failure to recall the employee in the specified time will require you to give him his entitled termination pay (# of weeks pay depends on how many years he's worked for you). If you recall him and he chooses not to return to work, then you are not obligated to pay him any severance.

It's not the ideal situation, but at least you have a few options to "at a minimum, delay" any termination/severance pay should you not wish to recall him. You also always have the option to bring him back to work within the 60 days (without paying any severance) and then let the "chips fall where they may". Based on your comments, I suspect the likelihood of him returning are fairly small.

Before doing anything, I would highly recommend you contact the Alberta employment hotline as I've found them to be unbiased, and they provide a wealth of info. to both employers and employees.

Hope this helps?

[TBD]

Originally Posted by Bigwoodsman

An employee walks into an office and demands to be laid off. The request is granted, and he leaves immediately. Now he is seeking termination and severance pay. What is he entitled too if anything? I'm thinking if anything at all it would be 2 week Termination pay, for the amount of notice that he would should have given.

BW

no notice / severance is required.

[Scotty454]

Originally Posted by bschlinker

My first comment is that you always need to be careful when maneuvering around labor laws. I understand you were trying to be the "nice guy" but this has the potential to cost you money and/or really bite you in the arse...

At this point, if you can justify the layoff (which you will want to be sure you can to cover yourself, in the event the employee tries to challenge it). You will then need to issue him a formal lay-off notice and highlight a few specific clauses of the labor code (If memory serves me correct its: 62, 63, 64). You are not required to give him immediate termination/severance pay, and as outlined in your layoff letter which you review with him and get him to sign, you will then have up to 60 days in which to "recall" the employee back to work. Failure to recall the employee in the specified time will require you to give him his entitled termination pay (# of weeks pay depends on how many years he's worked for you). If you recall him and he chooses not to return to work, then you are not obligated to pay him any severance.

It's not the ideal situation, but at least you have a few options to "at a minimum, delay" any termination/severance pay should you not wish to recall him. You also always have the option to bring him back to work within the 60 days (without paying any severance) and then let the "chips fall where they may". Based on your comments, I suspect the likelihood of him returning are fairly small.

Before doing anything, I would highly recommend you contact the Alberta employment hotline as I've found them to be unbiased, and they provide a wealth of info. to both employers and employees.

Hope this helps?

This should be all you need to know. Good stuff here.

[Sashi]

IMO you can only lay this person off, if you have no more work for him, or can no longer use his skills. Otherwise you are giving him access to Government, EI which he doesn't deserve, because there was still work available for him.

[Bigwoodsman]

Received an email from this fellow today, where he outlined our conversation the day, he was laid off/quit.

He states I gave you 3 option, lay me off, give me another Supervisor, or terminate me. You chose to lay me off.

In his email he has given me written notice to pay him severance for 7 years of service, or he will be filing a complaint with Labor Standards.

Now that I have this in writing from this fellow. I called Alberta Labor Standards for some clarification. I explained the situation to the lady at Alberta Labor. She tells me to let him file his complaint and an arbitrator will be assigned. She further says that him sending this email giving me the three options, will most likely be considered quit without notice, which will result in no further compensation to this fellow. However she is only going from what I am telling her, and that the arbitrator will decide.

The Alberta Labor Standard that I have is the most recent I can find, dated November 1, 2014, interesting to note that it does not include anything for Severance, just Termination and termination pay in lieu of notice.

I will not be corresponding with this fellow any further other than through an arbitrator, I think my chances are pretty good as well. Payroll has put requested Layoff on his separation slip, paid him in full for the day he left, as well as all other monies (V/P) owed to him at the time.

I think my chances are pretty good that we are done with him.

As for EI, in the past I've gotten calls from EI asking for an explanation as to the termination and what transpired. They make their own decisions, and even paid EI to a fellow who was terminated for fighting with another employee. They beat their own drum in that office!

BW

[Okotokian]

Just be aware that the government and their arbitrator will only deal with issues covered by Employment Standards. That's the minor part of any potential notice/severance issue with a 7 year employee. The awards made by a court under common law can be much larger.

Frankly, not sure how you get out of paying something. The guy didn't resign. In fact the options he gave you made it clear that he had no intention of resigning and walking away. He wanted YOU to take some action. Unfortunately you did. I take it he has an ROE issued by you in his hand proving it. Not sure I see how you get out of this without paying something.

[fish_e_o]

Originally Posted by Bigwoodsman

Received an email from this fellow today, where he outlined our conversation the day, he was laid off/quit.

He states I gave you 3 option, lay me off, give me another Supervisor, or terminate me. You chose to lay me off.

In his email he has given me written notice to pay him severance for 7 years of service, or he will be filing a complaint with Labor Standards.

Now that I have this in writing from this fellow. I called Alberta Labor Standards for some clarification. I explained the situation to the lady at Alberta Labor. She tells me to let him file his complaint and an arbitrator will be assigned. She further says that him sending this email giving me the three options, will most likely be considered quit without notice, which will result in no further compensation to this fellow. However she is only going from what I am telling her, and that the arbitrator will decide.

The Alberta Labor Standard that I have is the most recent I can find, dated November 1, 2014, interesting to note that it does not include anything for Severance, just Termination and termination pay in lieu of notice.

I will not be corresponding with this fellow any further other than through an arbitrator, I think my chances are pretty good as well. Payroll has put requested Layoff on his separation slip, paid him in full for the day he left, as well as all other monies (V/P) owed to him at the time.

I think my chances are pretty good that we are done with him.

As for EI, in the past I've gotten calls from EI asking for an explanation as to the termination and what transpired. They make their own decisions, and even paid EI to a fellow who was terminated for fighting with another employee. They beat their own drum in that office!

BW

you gave him a layoff? bring him back and don't give him a new supervisor

if he says no do up a new roe as quit

[ctd]

Kind of a pickle here.
What could bite you is if he had more complaints agaisnt his supervisor.
They would have had to been documented. He could spin it and say he was in a hostile work environment.

Seems how he wrote you that email I don't think he will.have a leg to stand on.

Worse case scenerio you pay him 5 weeks pay and be done with the guy. But I would recall the guy first.

[ratherbeoutside]

Also depends what industry you work in. Construction industry doesn't require any notice or pay in lieu of notice...

[Scotty454]

Severance doesn't exist in the eyes on the law. Like people have stated. There's legal termination notice, or pay in lieu of notice (In which case, he will not get EI until the end of his notice period), and that's it.

You could have laid him off, forced him to work for the duration of his 7 week legal notice period, and owed him nothing.

Incidentally, the link I mentioned earlier (https://work.alberta.ca/documents/Te...emp-Layoff.pdf) is from Feb, 2015.

[6mm rem]

You can give a temporary lay off then ask him to come back if he says no then no EI. I'd just starve him until he quits myself.

[Peter Abelard]

Originally Posted by Bigwoodsman

Received an email from this fellow today, where he outlined our conversation the day, he was laid off/quit.

He states I gave you 3 option, lay me off, give me another Supervisor, or terminate me. You chose to lay me off.

The man doesn't know how to navigate the system. I'm sure he'll be spinning his hard-luck tale to his barstool buddies for years to come.