So.... Are vaccinations safe..?

[rugatika]

By 1910, frequent epidemics became regular events throughout the developed world, primarily in cities during the summer months. At its peak in the 1940s and 1950s, polio would paralyze or kill over half a million people worldwide every year.


by 1961, only 161 cases were recorded in the United States. The last cases of paralytic poliomyelitis caused by endemic transmission of poliovirus in the United States were in 1979, when an outbreak occurred among the Amish in several Midwestern states.

I'd say vaccines are as safe as seatbelts. There might be the very odd case where they harm you, but by and large...

[fish_e_o]

Originally Posted by chasingtail

I am pro-Vaccine but do think kids are given to big of doses in a short time frame. Autism rates are exploding, vaccines or not something needs to be done. Canada and the USA gives the most Vaccines in the world to kids under the age of 6, upwards of 30 different vaccines and has the highest rates of Autism in the world. We also don't fair that well in infant mortality compared to a lot of first world countries that give half the vaccines we do.
Japan at one time maybe still banned the MMR vaccine as Autism rates really increased after they were introduced.

http://www.rescuepost.com/files/gr-a...al_report1.pdf

it probably has nothing to do with north america being the most obese region in the world

[Matt L.]

Originally Posted by ganderblaster

Then think of who benefitted from the HIN1, SARS, Swine flu and other diseases that were supposed to kill so many.

Seriously?

[fish_e_o]

Originally Posted by ganderblaster

Then think of who benefitted from the HIN1, SARS, Swine flu and other diseases that were supposed to kill so many.

i got swine flu. i can genuinely tell you i wish i had gotten the shot.

that was the sickest i have ever been

[wags]

Vaccinations are why the events surrounding the 1919 Stanley Cup are not common place any longer, where the Stanley Cup was eventually not awarded due to the flu outbreak, several players were hospitalized, and a couple died.

Cheers

[Johnny Huntnfish]

I find it weird that your not even allowed to question the link between vaccinations and autism. I remember Jim Carey saying that its strange how vilified he was for wanting to talk about it. He is not against vaccinations in any way.....he just questions a certain chemical added to specific vaccines and its link to autism.....he still wants his kids vaccinated but wants to avoid the one with the specific chemical....and he was dragged over the coals for expressing this opinion. That worries me more than anything.

From what I've read about this documentary Vaxxed, they think that children should be vaccinated.....just that they shouldn't pack every vaccine into a kids body by age 3. Apparently the risk of autism goes way down if the vaccines are given over a longer period of time (up until 5 instead of 3). Sooooo, whats so horrible about that? After talking to Mother and Mother in law about it, they said that it used to be much more spaced out back in the day and autism wasn't a growing problem at all.

This sounds like a healthy medium to me.

[bpoppa85]

Originally Posted by Trochu

It seems to me that the large majority of people who are for vaccines want everyone to get vaccinated and those who aren't don't care if others do or not, they just don't want the shot themselves. The irony is if you get the shot, and it works as intended, why do you care if I get sick or not? Isn't it basically admitting that the shot doesn't work and the only way not to get sick is to have zero contact with someone who is?

I want you and your little miss measles of a child to get a shot because children under a certain age can not be vaccinated. They are relying on others to not infect them. Not complicated. Your argument is rediculous.

[fish_e_o]

Originally Posted by Johnny Huntnfish

I find it weird that your not even allowed to question the link between vaccinations and autism. I remember Jim Carey saying that its strange how vilified he was for wanting to talk about it. He is not against vaccinations in any way.....he just questions a certain chemical added to specific vaccines and its link to autism.....he still wants his kids vaccinated but wants to avoid the one with the specific chemical....and he was dragged over the coals for expressing this opinion. That worries me more than anything.

From what I've read about this documentary Vaxxed, they think that children should be vaccinated.....just that they shouldn't pack every vaccine into a kids body by age 3. Apparently the risk of autism goes way down if the vaccines are given over a longer period of time (up until 5 instead of 3). Sooooo, whats so horrible about that? After talking to Mother and Mother in law about it, they said that it used to be much more spaced out back in the day and autism wasn't a growing problem at all.

This sounds like a healthy medium to me.

the chemical was mercury and it was a preservative(?)

it hasn't been in vaccines in canada since like 2000. so about 16 years assuming i have my dates right

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by midgetwaiter

Vaccinated doesn't mean immune.

That's it exactly. My friend had the vaccinations for chicken pox for example - but when his kids got the chicken pox, he had to leave. Otherwise healthy, but recommended by a doctor not to take any chances.

I've had all the childhood diseases, and it doesn't bother me in the least to be around kids that have come down with them. When we were kids, we were expected to get sick - chicken pox in town, go play with the kids that have it. Measles, mumps, same thing.

I look at babies, dependant on mom's immune system through breast milk. It's known that a vaccinated mother isn't capable of producing the same level of antibodies than a mother that actually had the diseases.

And what about the people that contracted the disease through the very needle that was to prevent the disease in the first place? Met a woman with polio a number of years back - got it from the vaccine itself.

I'd like to see more "real" research done on effects of vaccines, that's what we are missing. Too much he said, she said, too many people taking sides and not enough is known.

[wags]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

That's it exactly. My friend had the vaccinations for chicken pox for example - but when his kids got the chicken pox, he had to leave. Otherwise healthy, but recommended by a doctor not to take any chances.

I've had all the childhood diseases, and it doesn't bother me in the least to be around kids that have come down with them. When we were kids, we were expected to get sick - chicken pox in town, go play with the kids that have it. Measles, mumps, same thing.

I look at babies, dependant on mom's immune system through breast milk. It's known that a vaccinated mother isn't capable of producing the same level of antibodies than a mother that actually had the diseases.

And what about the people that contracted the disease through the very needle that was to prevent the disease in the first place? Met a woman with polio a number of years back - got it from the vaccine itself.

I'd like to see more "real" research done on effects of vaccines, that's what we are missing. Too much he said, she said, too many people taking sides and not enough is known.

So the fact that millions upon millions used to die from the flu/measels/etc and that isn't the case since vaccinations started isn't enough evidence?

[rugatika]

http://www.publichealth.org/public-a...yths-debunked/
Myth #1: Vaccines cause autism.
The widespread fear that vaccines increase risk of autism originated with a 1997 study published by Andrew Wakefield, a British surgeon. The article was published in The Lancet, a prestigious medical journal, suggesting that the measles, mumps, rubella (MMR) vaccine was increasing autism in British children.

The paper has since been completely discredited due to serious procedural errors, undisclosed financial conflicts of interest, and ethical violations. Andrew Wakefield lost his medical license and the paper was retracted from The Lancet.

Nonetheless, the hypothesis was taken seriously, and several other major studies were conducted. None of them found a link between any vaccine and the likelihood of developing autism.

Today, the true causes of autism remain a mystery, but to the discredit of the autism-vaccination link theory, several studies have now identified symptoms of autism in children well before they receive the MMR vaccine. And even more recent research provides evidence that autism develops in utero, well before a baby is born or receives vaccinations.

And the article goes on to dispel 7 other vaccination myths.

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by wags

So the fact that millions upon millions used to die from the flu/measels/etc and that isn't the case since vaccinations started isn't enough evidence?

So why are vaccinated kids still getting sick? Vaccinated does not mean immune.

I am immune to chicken pox, measles, mumps etc cause i've had it all. I've had to take care of kids that were sick with these childhood diseases when the "vaccinated" parents were told to take precautions and leave the home. What does that tell you?

I don't know what's right or wrong when it comes to vaccinations. I'm not taking sides here, just questioning.

[st99]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

So why are vaccinated kids still getting sick? Vaccinated does not mean immune.

I am immune to chicken pox, measles, mumps etc cause i've had it all. I've had to take care of kids that were sick with these childhood diseases when the "vaccinated" parents were told to take precautions and leave the home. What does that tell you?

I don't know what's right or wrong when it comes to vaccinations. I'm not taking sides here, just questioning.

it might not work 100%, but I'll take 1% over 0 every time

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by st99

it might not work 100%, but I'll take 1% over 0 every time

I'll take my natural immune system and if for some reason it fails, I have no one to blame but myself.

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

I'll take my natural immune system and if for some reason it fails, I have no one to blame but myself.

Same here...

Chicken pox as a kid isn't pleasant, but pox as an adult is a whole different game. I really feel bad for the population that didn't have the typical childhood diseases - and have to worry about it later in life.

[Trochu]

Originally Posted by bpoppa85

I want you and your little miss measles of a child to get a shot because children under a certain age can not be vaccinated. They are relying on others to not infect them. Not complicated. Your argument is rediculous.

Maybe you should calm down before you start throwing out insults?

As has been posted on this very thread: "I look at babies, dependant on mom's immune system through breast milk. It's known that a vaccinated mother isn't capable of producing the same level of antibodies than a mother that actually had the diseases."

Children under a certain age are indeed relying on others to not infect them, mainly their mother's immune system, which isn't as effective if she's been vaccinated. Are you implying that mothers shouldn't be vaccinated to protect those children under a certain age? Care to try again, maybe a little bit more politely this time?

[rugatika]

f you wanted to gain immunity to measles, for example, by contracting the disease, you would face a 1 in 500 chance of death from your symptoms. In contrast, the number of people who have had severe allergic reactions from an MMR vaccine, is less than one-in-one million.

[Trochu]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

I've had to take care of kids that were sick with these childhood diseases when the "vaccinated" parents were told to take precautions and leave the home. What does that tell you?

It implies to me that some people may be preying on the fears of others to get a piece of the billion dollar pie. It can't be proven that certain vaccinations work or that certain vaccinations don't, but if I stand to make a billion or two, I'm likely gonna tell you that you should be vaccinated because a 1% chance is better than a 0% chance.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

And what about the people that contracted the disease through the very needle that was to prevent the disease in the first place? Met a woman with polio a number of years back - got it from the vaccine itself.

Myth #7: Vaccines can infect my child with the disease it’s trying to prevent.
Vaccines can cause mild symptoms resembling those of the disease they are protecting against. A common misconception is that these symptoms signal infection. In fact, in the small percentage (less than 1 in one million cases) where symptoms do occur, the vaccine recipients are experiencing a body’s immune response to the vaccine, not the disease itself. There is only one recorded instance in which a vaccine was shown to cause disease. This was the Oral Polio Vaccine (OPV) which is no longer used in the U.S. Since then, vaccines have been in safe use for decades and follow strict Food and Drug Administration (FDA) regulations.

I wonder if it was from the oral polio vaccine? I think it's one of the only vaccines that used a weakened vaccine instead of a dead one. (and is no longer in use in Canada because of this...although it is still used internationally)

[Twisted Canuck]

I'm not anti-vaccine per se, as they have obviously had a very beneficial effect on eliminating or reducing disease (polio and smallpox, don't miss them). I do know people who have had children damaged by vaccines, my nephew being one of them. I believe the incidence of direct harm is small, and you have to weigh the risk/benefit but overall the benefit to society in in favor of vaccination. Unfortunate if your child is directly harmed though, the long term stress on a family can be incredible. My greater concern with vaccine is something that not enough study has been done on, but has become quite a controversy in some medical circles, and that is whether or not there is a correlation between vaccinations and the tremendous spike we have seen in autoimmune disease in developed countries that are heavily vaccinated. The following source is one that most would find 'reputable', not a tinfoil 'anti' sight, but there is a plethora of information available on this topic, I leave it to anyone to do their own research. I've read extensively on the topic, and would like to see extensive studies done that aren't funded by Big Pharma, who obviously have a multi billion dollar stake in the game. (an article on vaccine profits can be found here: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/stephen...b_6614010.html)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10648110

Abstract

The question of a connection between vaccination and autoimmune illness (or phenomena) is surrounded by controversy. A heated debate is going on regarding the causality between vaccines, such as measles and anti-hepatitis B virus (HBV), and multiple sclerosis (MS). Brain antibodies as well as clinical symptoms have been found in patients vaccinated against those diseases. Other autoimmune illnesses have been associated with vaccinations. Tetanus toxoid, influenza vaccines, polio vaccine, and others, have been related to phenomena ranging from autoantibodies production to full-blown illness (such as rheumatoid arthritis (RA)). Conflicting data exists regarding also the connection between autism and vaccination with measles vaccine. So far only one controlled study of an experimental animal model has been published, in which the possible causal relation between vaccines and autoimmune findings has been examined: in healthy puppies immunized with a variety of commonly given vaccines, a variety of autoantibodies have been documented but no frank autoimmune illness was recorded. The findings could also represent a polyclonal activation (adjuvant reaction). The mechanism (or mechanisms) of autoimmune reactions following immunization has not yet been elucidated. One of the possibilities is molecular mimicry; when a structural similarity exists between some viral antigen (or other component of the vaccine) and a self-antigen. This similarity may be the trigger to the autoimmune reaction. Other possible mechanisms are discussed. Even though the data regarding the relation between vaccination and autoimmune disease is conflicting, it seems that some autoimmune phenomena are clearly related to immunization (e.g. Guillain-Barre syndrome). The issue of the risk of vaccination remains a philosophical one, since to date the advantages of this policy have not been refuted, while the risk for autoimmune disease has not been irrevocably proved. We discuss the pros and cons of this issue (although the temporal relationship (i.e. always 2-3 months following immunization) is impressive).

Related:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20521925

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20193633

[fish_e_o]

Originally Posted by Trochu

It can't be proven that certain vaccinations work or that certain vaccinations don't,

you're going to have to take my word on this but vaccinations work the science is good.

[Trochu]

Originally Posted by rugatika

f you wanted to gain immunity to measles, for example, by contracting the disease, you would face a 1 in 500 chance of death from your symptoms. In contrast, the number of people who have had severe allergic reactions from an MMR vaccine, is less than one-in-one million.

You sure about that rugatika? A CTV article:

http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/canadia...toll-1.2249491

Indicated "330,000 MMR doses given in Ontario last year, there were just 49 reports of side-effects" most mild, and "between 2000 and 2011, Canada recorded five deaths from the disease."

Just seems odd that with 330k doses given and 49 reported side effects, tripling the number of doses wouldn't possibly increase the severity of side effects in more than one person. Also, with 1 in 500 chances and five deaths, that would indicate 25,000 cases of measles in the 2000's, a number that seems really high to me.

[fish_e_o]

i got my tetanus shot and it made my arm ache.

i bet it had more to do with the needle injecting stuff into the muscle than the shot itself

[Rio56]

If you don't wanna believe that vaccinations work and instead accept some popular social media crap ? . Then stay home and isolate yourself and your family as well . I don't wanna go back 100 years ....
just plain stupid ....

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by Trochu

You sure about that rugatika? A CTV article:

http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/canadia...toll-1.2249491

Indicated "330,000 MMR doses given in Ontario last year, there were just 49 reports of side-effects" most mild, and "between 2000 and 2011, Canada recorded five deaths from the disease."

Just seems odd that with 330k doses given and 49 reported side effects, tripling the number of doses wouldn't possibly increase the severity of side effects in more than one person. Also, with 1 in 500 chances and five deaths, that would indicate 25,000 cases of measles in the 2000's, a number that seems really high to me.

From the article you quoted: "Not all children did survive, recalls Jagdis, who says doctors expected to see one to three deaths per 1,000 cases. Some died as a result of encephalitis, others from bacterial pneumonia, another common complication of measles." One to three deaths per 1000 would seem to be in line with 1 in 500 deaths that I quoted from the article I found. No discrepancy there.

5 deaths would mean about 2500 cases of measles. Statistical anomaly given the small sample size. Any stats I could find show less than 500 cases roughly for the entire time.

[Trochu]

Originally Posted by fish_e_o

you're going to have to take my word on this but vaccinations work the science is good.

Generally, I'd agree, but sometimes it gets sketchy. I could also argue the definition of the word "work". Does "vaccinations work" mean your immune, which is flat out stated by health Canada (measles), or as some have stated on this forum, "It means that your immune system has a leg up on fighting the disease when you are exposed to it.", which technically could be you went from a 12% chance of getting the disease to a 11% chance? Then there is also the possibility of getting vaccinated for the wrong disease, so the vaccine has no chance of working as you weren't ever exposed to it in the first place.

[Trochu]

Originally Posted by rugatika

From the article you quoted: "Not all children did survive, recalls Jagdis, who says doctors expected to see one to three deaths per 1,000 cases. Some died as a result of encephalitis, others from bacterial pneumonia, another common complication of measles." One to three deaths per 1000 would seem to be in line with 1 in 500 deaths that I quoted from the article I found. No discrepancy there.

Kind of, that doctor was practicing in the '60's and the article gives no frame of reference for the time frame of that statement.

[Rio56]

Originally Posted by Trochu

Generally, I'd agree, but sometimes it gets sketchy. I could also argue the definition of the word "work". Does "vaccinations work" mean your immune, which is flat out stated by health Canada (measles), or as some have stated on this forum, "It means that your immune system has a leg up on fighting the disease when you are exposed to it.", which technically could be you went from a 12% chance of getting the disease to a 11% chance? Then there is also the possibility of getting vaccinated for the wrong disease, so the vaccine has no chance of working as you weren't ever exposed to it in the first place.

says Doctor Trochu .... this is where the BS starts .... argue some more .. just stay at home ... thanks

[fish_e_o]

Originally Posted by Trochu

Generally, I'd agree, but sometimes it gets sketchy. I could also argue the definition of the word "work". Does "vaccinations work" mean your immune, which is flat out stated by health Canada (measles), or as some have stated on this forum, "It means that your immune system has a leg up on fighting the disease when you are exposed to it.", which technically could be you went from a 12% chance of getting the disease to a 11% chance? Then there is also the possibility of getting vaccinated for the wrong disease, so the vaccine has no chance of working as you weren't ever exposed to it in the first place.

you are vaccinated for a certain disease which is why people still get the flu after a flu shot.

flus rapidly mutate and change so you could have been given a vaccine for a different strain.

that's not to say the vaccine didn't work it was just for a different strain.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by fish_e_o

you are vaccinated for a certain disease which is why people still get the flu after a flu shot.

flus rapidly mutate and change so you could have been given a vaccine for a different strain.

that's not to say the vaccine didn't work it was just for a different strain.

Yep, from what I understand...in order to make enough flu vaccine they have to start producing the vaccine well before the flu season gets going. Sometimes they predict close enough, and sometimes they don't.