Scope setup problem (ok probably user problem)

[tchardy1972]

Again. What action are you working with? Just because the base is thicker on the back doesn't mean its tapered. A Remington for eg. needs different hight of bases from front to back. It's probably the wrong base.

[qwert]

I suggest you treat the problems you are having as a learning opportunity. We do not learn much when things work easily.

A few suggestions, use some or all or modify to suit as you see fit.

If your scope (and hopefully reticle) is calibrated in MOA then you should do all your measurements and calibration in imperial measure. Make COMPLETE written notes of ALL results for future reference.

Put a good quality straight edge against both the mounting surfaces of your rail and receiver to check for parallel and in the same plane. This will be a LOT easier if you do not have a stepped receiver (like a Mauser).

Check that the top mounting surface of your rail is flat and true and not bent or twisted. Measure your rail height front and back and calculate the slope from the difference between the front and rear and the distance between the points of measure. I suspect that this will challenge your math skills, (I know it would mine) but it is a learning experience and will teach (or at least review) a lot about MOA.

Mount the rail to the action and use a long straightedge (like a good 4’ level) set on the top of the rail or the bottom of the ring seat and again calculate both the slope and the height of the scope centerline from the bore centerline (you will need this to input into your ballistic calculations to determine exactly at what ranges the bullet flight will cross your scope line of sight). A bore saver in the action may make it easier to locate and measure the bore rear centerline. Recalculate and confirm rail system slope as above.

Center your scope reticle by counting clicks of total travel then backing up 1/2 way, then verify reticle centering by rotating the scope in a set of v-blocks (or cardboard box with v cuts in sides), a properly centered reticle should stay on point of aim when rotated. If it is possible to adjust your turrets zero scale (refer to your scope manual), then zero them at this setting, or note their fixed non-adjustable position.

SECURE your rifle solidly in bags (or rest) and aim bore at center mark on a very LARGE grid target (I suggest large grid paper like a flip chart from an office supply) with a grid spacing matching your scope units (I suspect your scope turrets and reticle are both in MOA / imperial units). If you are in MOA / imperial I suggest you mount your target EXACTLY 100 yards from your scope objective lens as this will make measurements direct and not require any corrections for range. (If scope is in metric / MIL units use 100 meter target range.) Using a shorter range will allow a smaller target grid but will require correction of results which increases the possibility of calculation error.

Note and clearly mark the scope POA on the target grid and confirm reticle units against the grid. Use this POA for all further testing.

Adjust the windage full left and note POA on grid and turret.
Adjust elevation full up and note POA on grid and turret.
Adjust windage full right and note POA on grid and turret.
Adjust elevation full down and note POA on grid and turret.
Adjust windage full left and note POA on grid and turret.
Adjust elevation up to reticle centered position and note POA on grid and turret.
Adjust windage right to reticle centered position and note POA on grid and turret.

This process is called ‘boxing the scope’ and measures and confirms accurate tracking and repeatability of the scope reticle adjusting mechanism. Your results may be ‘interesting and informative’ (or YMMV).

After completing this exercise to test the scope, repeat the boxing exercise but only moving the turrets a fixed amount (like 5 or 10 MOA) and firing 3 shots at each corner. Mark your shots on target then fire 3 more shots at the first corner. This ‘boxing the scope’ exercise measures and confirms accurate tracking and repeatability of the scope reticle adjusting mechanism including the effect of recoil.

This exercise will also determine the accuracy of your scope units and if the corrections are calibrated in true MOA (TMOA = 1.047”@100yds) or ‘shooters MOA’ (SMOA = 1”@100yds.) It will also allow you to accurately make use of ballistic calculators for long range correction and to use DOPE to calculate actual muzzle velocity.

Caution, the results of this exercise will cause you to brag a lot about the great deal you got on your scope OR cause you to talk to a Nightforce dealer. It will give you practical information and knowledge you can not get any other way and certainly not on any forum.

Good Luck, YMMV

[Spartikus]

Weatherby Vanguard 2 platform. I agree the base is the most likely culprit at this point.

As I go in for new bases and rings today I am reading that the VG2 will take remi 700 bases if I can't find anything specifically for the VG2. I'll see what BassPro has and then maybe head south to CT and wholesale if I am not happy.

Once I do get the bases and rings sorted I'll have to set up the alignment and likely lap the rings. I read you should be looking for at least %75 contact between scope and rings. Sounds like a no brainer but I am sure it's not all that easy.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by tchardy1972

Chuck. Don't tell me that you actually use dual dove tail rings and bases on your own stuff. I thought you would know better than that.

Only on rifles I'm not pretending to be GI Joe with. You know, hunting rifles that need to maintain there zero. What is your actual experience with them.

[qwert]

Originally Posted by Spartikus

Weatherby Vanguard 2 platform. I agree the base is the most likely culprit at this point.

As I go in for new bases and rings today I am reading that the VG2 will take remi 700 bases if I can't find anything specifically for the VG2. I'll see what BassPro has and then maybe head south to CT and wholesale if I am not happy.

Once I do get the bases and rings sorted I'll have to set up the alignment and likely lap the rings. I read you should be looking for at least %75 contact between scope and rings. Sounds like a no brainer but I am sure it's not all that easy.

http://nightforceoptics.com/wp_super...-optics-rings/

IMHO, lapping of rings is too often used in an attempt to correct poor quality or alignment problems that are more properly corrected at their source.

Good Luck, YMMV

[gtr]

More often than not lapping is a two second job , when mounting has been carried out with care. Proper tools and quality components makes the job easier.

[tchardy1972]

Originally Posted by chuck

Only on rifles I'm not pretending to be GI Joe with. You know, hunting rifles that need to maintain there zero. What is your actual experience with them.

There is zero shear strength in the dovetail set up. I don't use them myself but I had two hunting partners have issues. One had the front dovetail shear off in a 300 weatherby, the othe had the rearwindage screw break the head in half on a 300 win. Point being, there are far better out there than the worst set up in history.

I prefer the tally one piece on my hunting rigs. If not the weaver bases with burris signature rings.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by tchardy1972

There is zero shear strength in the dovetail set up. I don't use them myself but I had two hunting partners have issues. One had the front dovetail shear off in a 300 weatherby, the othe had the rearwindage screw break the head in half on a 300 win. Point being, there are far better out there than the worst set up in history.

I prefer the tally one piece on my hunting rigs. If not the weaver bases with burris signature rings.

There are no windage adjustment screws on dual dovetail bases. None. I have also heard of many more Talley LW's breaking than leupold DD's

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by tchardy1972

There is zero shear strength in the dovetail set up. I don't use them myself but I had two hunting partners have issues. One had the front dovetail shear off in a 300 weatherby, the othe had the rearwindage screw break the head in half on a 300 win. Point being, there are far better out there than the worst set up in history.

I prefer the tally one piece on my hunting rigs. If not the weaver bases with burris signature rings.

The STD bases maybe , but the dual dovetail bases are pretty danged strong.
Cat

[tchardy1972]

Originally Posted by chuck

There are no windage adjustment screws on dual dovetail bases. None. I have also heard of many more Talley LW's breaking than leupold DD's

I am fully aware that a dual dove tail doesn't have windage screws. The one example I provided was a dual dove tail. The other was just something else to look out for. There is no shear strength to a dove tail. None. There are far better available.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by tchardy1972

I am fully aware that a dual dove tail doesn't have windage screws. The one example I provided was a dual dove tail. The other was just something else to look out for. There is no shear strength to a dove tail. None. There are far better available.

Based on my experience, extensive experience, I will disagree.

[Cowtown guy]

Originally Posted by Spartikus

Weatherby Vanguard 2 platform. I agree the base is the most likely culprit at this point.

As I go in for new bases and rings today I am reading that the VG2 will take remi 700 bases if I can't find anything specifically for the VG2. I'll see what BassPro has and then maybe head south to CT and wholesale if I am not happy.

Once I do get the bases and rings sorted I'll have to set up the alignment and likely lap the rings. I read you should be looking for at least %75 contact between scope and rings. Sounds like a no brainer but I am sure it's not all that easy.

The Rem 700 bases are what you are looking for. I had a V2. They work perfectly.

[cowmanbob]

I use the leupold dual dovetail system on five rifles. Never had a scope fall off yet. Chucks original advice was bang on.

[Rman]

Originally Posted by chuck

Based on my experience, extensive experience, I will disagree.

Extensive experience in inferior mounting systems?

Fasteners trump friction fit all day, everyday. The idea is to reduce variables, not introduce them.

What mounting systems do the high end gun makers you like to refer to all the time, use?

As mentioned, the OP would be well served by a proper ring and base combo, hopefully he chooses a set up that uses fasteners, and not friction.

R.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Rman

Extensive experience in inferior mounting systems?

Fasteners trump friction fit all day, everyday. The idea is to reduce variables, not introduce them.

What mounting systems do the high end gun makers you like to refer to all the time, use?

As mentioned, the OP would be well served by a proper ring and base combo, hopefully he chooses a set up that uses fasteners, and not friction.

R.

Once again, I'm not playing pretend sniper. I have used enough systems to know what is good or not for a hunting rifle. You use what you like, but I use my rifles to hunt with and scope them accordingly.

[Rman]

Originally Posted by chuck

Once again, I'm not playing pretend sniper. I have used enough systems to know what is good or not for a hunting rifle. You use what you like, but I use my rifles to hunt with and scope them accordingly.

Chuck...I have a whole closet full of rifles that I hunt with, not one of them has friction fit ring/base combo's on them. If inferior is what you strive for in mounting systems on a hunting rig, then I'm glad you've found it. Again, please refer to the builders you like to try and emulate so much, and see what they use?

I can assume from your comments, that anyone, in your mind, that uses a rail is some kind of "pretend sniper"?

Weak sauce, even for you.

R.

[catnthehat]

According to a fella named Vaughn who wrote a book on rifle accuracy,
The only real good way to mount a set of rings and bases so nothing moves is to silver solder them to the receiver.
Cat

[Spartikus]

Thanks everyone. Going back to my OP, the question was am I missing something. Answer was no.

Got a set of leupold Weatherby Mark V bases today at Basspro and a matching set of rings. First time I shouldered it it was 100% on target with the internal adjustments having lots of room.

Thanks for the good inputs and feedback. The issue was the one piece rail base that I had with the gun was likely (based on what I saw today) a more generic weaver rail meant to "sort of" fit several guns. On the weaver rail bag at BassPro I shied away when I saw the asterix beside the Vanguard saying may require shimming. No thanks

Thank you all again. Problem solved. I will spend a few days properly bedding the mounts and settign the rings and then take it out for some romps at the range.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Rman

Chuck...I have a whole closet full of rifles that I hunt with, not one of them has friction fit ring/base combo's on them. If inferior is what you strive for in mounting systems on a hunting rig, then I'm glad you've found it. Again, please refer to the builders you like to try and emulate so much, and see what they use?

I can assume from your comments, that anyone, in your mind, that uses a rail is some kind of "pretend sniper"?

Weak sauce, even for you.

R.

Many, many of them have used and still use DD rings and bases.

I like your avatar by the way. Is that a can of beef stew? Dinty Moore?