Five reasons to BAN Spears and Atlatls

[u_cant_rope_the_wind]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Five reasons to BAN Spears and Atlatls for hunting Big game


1. Few hunters use spears/atlatls.

2. They are truly "primitive" weapons.

3. There are Youtube videos using spears/atlatls that are not very flattering.

4. It is hard for hunting groups and governments to defend their use to non-hunters.

5. Spear/Atlatl use might bring unwanted attention to other weapons used for hunting big game.



Based on these Five Reasons, it is very clear that the Alberta government must Ban using spears and atlatls for hunting big game.


I'm not asking for any opinions on this matter, just telling you how it is and what will be.

they allow people to use spears to hunt with
but wont allow cross bows in archery season ???
thinking about that situation
someone aint making a lot of common sense up stairs are they ????

[avb3]

Personally I would not be opposed to spears being legitimized for at least some game. I have seen some remarkable accuracy by atlatl throwers.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by u_cant_rope_the_wind

they allow people to use spears to hunt with
but wont allow cross bows in archery season ???
thinking about that situation
someone aint making a lot of common sense up stairs are they ????

I'm not sure of the spear is allowed in the archery season at the moment, is it?
Actually I think Walking buffalo already stated this earlier in another post.
it sounds to me like they want to ban them outright!
Cat

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

But if it saves just one anti-hunter from complaining....


--------


FYI, Hunting with spears/atlatls are currently legal ONLY in general weapon (rifle) seasons. A person cannot use a spear/atlatl in the Archery only season.



As mentioned, the ABA membership did not vote on this resolution, it belongs to the President. To my knowledge the ABA membership has never been consulted on the matter. This resolution appears to be the agenda of a single person with the ability to get it to the AGMG table without having it voted on by the membership of the representative organization.



So why is the ABA trying to have them banned?

I had a long conversation with Brent Watson (ABA Pres.) in order to understand his position behind the resolution. Brent has posted on AO before and I am sure that he will be aware of this thread. I hope that Brent will reply here to correct any misunderstandings on my part.


Paraphrasing Brent's (ABA's) position;

- there have been no reported incidents/complaints of Licenced hunters using spears/atlatls resulting in the wounding and loss of big game .

- in his experience spears/atlatls are not easy enough to learn to use effectively and thus are not effective weapons.

- because spears/atlatls are not an effective weapon (in the ABA's opinion), they are thus indefensible in the event of complaints from the public.

- as spears/atlatls are indefensible as an effective weapon, the ABA cannot defend their use if asked to comment on any future issue/complaint involving these weapons.

- in order to eliminate any possibility that the public may complain about the use of spears/atlatls, and to eliminate the need for the ABA to respond to any requests for comments regarding the use of these weapons, the ABA has decided to request that the Alberta government Ban their use for big game.




To sum it up with my own words,

" if it saves just one anti-hunter from complaining...."

Somebody should show this guy the video of the fella in South Africa spearing a danged cape buffalo with a spear!!

Back in the day the great Fred Bear himself and his pals had to convince the public that the stick bow was a viable piece of hunting equipment, now we have one of our OWN saying that a different tool is not viable??
This guy needs to get off his one man soap box and realize that he is not president of his association because HE figured he should be, the members did!
IMO the WORST thing a president of any association can do is make statements such as this one based on their own personal opinion before consulting the members.
Their personal is just one opinion, they cannot speak for the general membership unless a vote is taken and even then that result is the position they should take publicly!!

Cat

[calgarychef]

Just for the record, I've tried to spear hunt and its gotta be one of the most challenging hunting methods I've used. I do know personally of a guy who got a deer with an Atlatl, I think it was a great personal goal and challenge for him.

[fatrack]

I will no longer support the ABA. Those who proposed this and support it are not friends of the hunting community!

[Flatlandliver]

I'm not sure I would want to get into an argument with anybody who could kill a bear with a spear, holy crap!

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by u_cant_rope_the_wind

they allow people to use spears to hunt with
but wont allow cross bows in archery season ???
thinking about that situation
someone aint making a lot of common sense up stairs are they ????

Spears aren't allowed in archery only season either....

LC

[Leather burner]

Not an effective weapon? Our species exists because of the effectiveness of those weapons. Of course they are extremely difficult to be proficient with, but if you really want to get in touch with your hunting heritage, and what our ancestors had to do to survive, give it a try. I think an interest in this and a desire to explore, understand and try some of these methods is good. I am an active archer, and considered joining and supporting the ABA, until now. Talk about trying to force a solution on a non existent problem. I would not want my membership dollars funding something so arrogant and wasteful, reminds me of the gun registry.

[Kanati]

Hey everyone,

Don't want to get burned alive for making this comment, because as a new guy, just starting down his hunting path, I want to make friends, not enemies.

With that said, can I place my 2 cents.

one thing I learned from taking the AHIEA course, is that hunters are and considered environmentalists, and conservationists. I understand that this is one of the biggest arguments that other groups hold against hunters, that they can't be both hunters and animal, environment and conservation lovers and enthusiasts; How can you kill the animals if you care for them etc.

So, where am I going with this. Well, from my understanding, and small amount of education so far, hunters do have a natural respect for the environment and the animals they harvest; a clear example would be the first nations, one of the most nature based religions in the world, yet they still hunted as part of the natural balance. However, is it not the role of the hunter, to not only respect the animals they harvest but also to harvest them with the utmost dignity towards the animal? If so, isn't spear hunting, and atlatls hunting not showing the dignity and respect of a clean, quick kill that the animals deserves? I would imagine a well place arrow, or bullet is a lot more accurate, and instant then throwing a spear; if anything it borderline sounds barbaric, and could possibly push those who don't understand hunting even further against us.

I suppose the whole point I am trying to make, is that isn't our job to respect the animal, and give them a quick, painless death? If so, surly its time the idea of throwing spears at large game has to come to an end.

respectfully.

R

[C Taylor]

Where is it legal to use a spear for hunting? How many pounds must your spear weigh? How long must your spear be?
Before the lynch mob hangs Brent, ask yourself, who would be the person to make these regulations? How much work is there to get it legalized? How many would actually use a spear? Is it worth the trouble?
Looks like a form from 2 years ago. Is srd still mad cuz someone questioned there math an digging up dirt?
These are my personal questions not aba's or afga's.

[u_cant_rope_the_wind]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Spears aren't allowed in archery only season either....

LC

I didn't say allow spears in archery season
I said
they allow people to use spears to hunt with
but wont allow cross bows in archery season ???

meaning if they allow spears to hunt with this day and age
why wont they allow cross bows in archery season????
what is their thought process here?????
DUHHHHHHHHHHH spears is just cruelty to animals IMHO

[Deer Hunter]

The ABA is going down the road as protectionist and exclusive bow hunters.
The archery mule deer draw is more proof beyond This spear thing.

There are plenty of ABA executives that post on here regularly, wonder if they can set the record straight.

Some people who bowhunt exclusively are very against other means of hunting. Is the ABA is made up of these types of people?

[ganderblaster]

I am very disappointed. Mr. Watson seems to specialize in creating divisions among hunters and yes I have told him that to his face. United we stand divided we all fall down. His position on these primitive weapons is particularly ironic this time however.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by Leather burner

Not an effective weapon? Our species exists because of the effectiveness of those weapons. Of course they are extremely difficult to be proficient with, but if you really want to get in touch with your hunting heritage, and what our ancestors had to do to survive, give it a try. I think an interest in this and a desire to explore, understand and try some of these methods is good. I am an active archer, and considered joining and supporting the ABA, until now. Talk about trying to force a solution on a non existent problem. I would not want my membership dollars funding something so arrogant and wasteful, reminds me of the gun registry.

I agree with this.

I've played around with spears. Throw a spear into a archery target and see what does more damage. A spear has a lot of weight and does a lot of damage.
Instead of banning them they should maybe set a standard, kind of like the minimum Arrow length and broadhead size.
There are a lot of people who hunt with bows that aren't very proficient. Should we ban bows now too. Everything takes practice.
I don't know what a Atlatl is but I am going to look it up right now.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Kanati

Hey everyone,

Don't want to get burned alive for making this comment, because as a new guy, just starting down his hunting path, I want to make friends, not enemies.

With that said, can I place my 2 cents.

one thing I learned from taking the AHIEA course, is that hunters are and considered environmentalists, and conservationists. I understand that this is one of the biggest arguments that other groups hold against hunters, that they can't be both hunters and animal, environment and conservation lovers and enthusiasts; How can you kill the animals if you care for them etc.

So, where am I going with this. Well, from my understanding, and small amount of education so far, hunters do have a natural respect for the environment and the animals they harvest; a clear example would be the first nations, one of the most nature based religions in the world, yet they still hunted as part of the natural balance. However, is it not the role of the hunter, to not only respect the animals they harvest but also to harvest them with the utmost dignity towards the animal? If so, isn't spear hunting, and atlatls hunting not showing the dignity and respect of a clean, quick kill that the animals deserves? I would imagine a well place arrow, or bullet is a lot more accurate, and instant then throwing a spear; if anything it borderline sounds barbaric, and could possibly push those who don't understand hunting even further against us.

I suppose the whole point I am trying to make, is that isn't our job to respect the animal, and give them a quick, painless death? If so, surly its time the idea of throwing spears at large game has to come to an end.

respectfully.

R

It all depends on just who is doing the shooting!
You cannot make a blanket statement and say say that one type of weapon kills better than another.
The operator is the biggest variable in anything.
You may not be able to kill a white tail at 150 yards with a patched round ball muzzle loader or a deer at 30 yards with a long bow, or a moose at 400 yards with a rifle but many can and do.

If one wants to start a big fight all one has to do is say that a particular cartridge - take the .223 for example , is unethical and not good for killling deer, then watch what happens!
Cat

[Kanati]

Very valid point, thanks Cat.

[grinr]

This guy reeks of elitism and is no friend of hunters.Given his proposal is so full of nonsense and personal opinions,I would question his ability to lead a boy scout troop,let alone represent a provincial hunting association,especially so in light of his reported statement of "too many bowhunters in Alberta these days."
Really Brent?Too many for who?Too many fly by nighter wannabes?Too many to the tipping point that now yourself and a handful of "true" elite bowhunters are now losing opportunities,ie;Mule deer draws?Correction,that should read "having to share" opportunities.
WOW!Unbeleivable arrogance!When in the history of NGOs has a president of same ever stated thst "we have too many members"??
That would be like DU Canada president saying "well gee whiz guys guys,thanks for all of your years and millions of $$ in support,we've made some fantastic progress since our grass roots days,now why don't a bunch of y'all go pound sand,hang up your shotguns,and stop shooting MY ducks.

Off with his head.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by grinr

"- in his opinion spears/atlatls are not easy enough to learn to use effectively and thus are not effective weapons. "

Fixed it.

This is the same ABA President that was just the other day quoted as saying he thinks there are too many bowhunters in Alberta now,yes?
Too many for him to buy a General Mule tag no doubt.

This president needs to be impeached.

Yeah I could say the same thing about bow hunters, rifle hunters not being very effective in knowing how to use their weapons of choice. If I was a spear hunter I would have my back against the wall and very ****ed off to say the least. If this was to go through than maybe each year we will have to show a proficiency theory and practical test on the weapon of choice to hunt with prior to being issued a hunting licence? Look at all the slobs out there who consistently take marginal shots, wound game etc yearly with bows, rifles etc.

[Matt L.]

Ah the ABA, Alberta Bowhunters-only Association. They're showing themselves to be very much an elitist group.

[u_cant_rope_the_wind]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

It all depends on just who is doing the shooting!
You cannot make a blanket statement and say say that one type of weapon kills better than another.
The operator is the biggest variable in anything.
You may not be able to kill a white tail at 150 yards with a patched round ball muzzle loader or a deer at 30 yards with a long bow, or a moose at 400 yards with a rifle but many can and do.

If one wants to start a big fight all one has to do is say that a particular cartridge - take the .223 for example , is unethical and not good for killling deer, then watch what happens!
Cat

good point Cat
I'm gonna do this just for poops and giggles just see what happens

[walking buffalo]

I'm glad that people are understanding and share the same concerns I have with this ABA resolution.


Some here may have noticed that I tend to bitch a bit about how our Alberta Game Management Advisory Group (AGMAG) operates in relative secrecy.


Besides my bitching, some may have also seen how the public dissemination of information through this Forum has influenced change within the AGAMG discussions.


Posting on this forum is one thing, but it does relatively little in the bigger picture. However, sending an email to and requesting a response from those tasked with making these decisions can truly influence change.


I believe that many individuals sitting at the AGAMAG table could care less about this resolution, and may let it pass for simplicity sake. I have heard that ESRD F&W is not opposed to banning spears/atlatls as they expect little public backlash. I have been told that there is a split within the AFGA on this topic, some just don't care if these weapons are banned while others do not see the need to do so.

Without public (your) input on this matter, the resolution actually has a pretty good chance of passing.

These are the people that need to hear from you on this matter. Please send an email with your questions and position.


Allen, Jim
Head - Wildlife Management Policy
Environment and Sustainable Resource Development

E-mail: james.allen@gov.ab.ca


Pat Dunford
Head, Legislative and Advisory Services

Email: Pat.Dunford@gov.ab.ca


Ian Stuart
Alberta Fish and Game association - (Hunting Chair)

Email: mooseridge2@gmail.com


Brent Watson
Alberta Bowhunters Association - President

Email: brent@albertabowhunters.com

[dogslayer403]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Five reasons to BAN Spears and Atlatls for hunting Big game


1. Few hunters use spears/atlatls.

2. They are truly "primitive" weapons.

3. There are Youtube videos using spears/atlatls that are not very flattering.

4. It is hard for hunting groups and governments to defend their use to non-hunters.

5. Spear/Atlatl use might bring unwanted attention to other weapons used for hunting big game.



Based on these Five Reasons, it is very clear that the Alberta government must Ban using spears and atlatls for hunting big game.


I'm not asking for any opinions on this matter, just telling you how it is and what will be.

Not asking for opinions just telling us how it is? Did you spend some time in the liberal govt by chance. I do not use spears nor will I ever but I like that I have the option its called freedom. You cant spew that load of crap out and not get opinions so if your not asking dont post maybe.

[grinr]

In response to Kanati's statement of animals deserving a quick,humane death.....have you ever even seen the or have a clue about the nasty huge spearheads that are used on hunting spears?We're not talking about Olympic javelins here bud.
Thanks anyway,but I'll take my chances with a broadhead tipped arrow into my chest cavity any day over getting pierced with one of these spears.If anything,these spears are far more lethal and humane than arrows.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by u_cant_rope_the_wind

good point Cat
I'm gonna do this just for poops and giggles just see what happens

You may as well start and say the patched round ball in a .45 cal rifle is no good and one should use a maxi - that is what one well known gun scribbler stated in a freakin' book that he wrote!
The next artcle I saw by this guy was one on stick bows, and he stated and I quote" Speed kills so shoot the heaviest bow you can pull"
utter nonsense!
I know many really good archers that will tell you in no uncertain terms that they shoot far more accurately with a bw far less than what they can pull at their maximum, and I realized that myself years ago.
Cat

[tony d]

im thinking of a list of reasons to ban the ABA lol

[Matt L.]

Originally Posted by dogslayer403

Not asking for opinions just telling us how it is? Did you spend some time in the liberal govt by chance. I do not use spears nor will I ever but I like that I have the option its called freedom. You cant spew that load of crap out and not get opinions so if your not asking dont post maybe.

Reading the whole thread before posting can save one some embarrassment. Just a tip.

[dogslayer403]

Originally Posted by Matt L.

Reading the whole thread before posting can save one some embarrassment. Just a tip.

Embarrased? with the crap Ive seen on here it would take a lot more than that to embarrass me thanks for the tip though. Thats my opinion on the topic and if I have missunderstood the OP my appoligies to Walking Buffalo it came off to me he was aggreeing with the Alberta Bowhunters Association if thats not the case I appoligize

[SammyIam]

Originally Posted by dogslayer403

Embarrased? with the crap Ive seen on here it would take a lot more than that to embarrass me thanks for the tip though. Thats my opinion on the topic and if I have missunderstood the OP my appoligies to Walking Buffalo it came off to me he was aggreeing with the Alberta Bowhunters Association if thats not the case I appoligize

You very much did misunderstand the OP

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by dogslayer403

Embarrased? with the crap Ive seen on here it would take a lot more than that to embarrass me thanks for the tip though. Thats my opinion on the topic and if I have missunderstood the OP my appoligies to Walking Buffalo it came off to me he was aggreeing with the Alberta Bowhunters Association if thats not the case I appoligize

WB's post was a bit tongue and cheek making a point that "someone else" was pushing it through for these reasons not him specifically.... It had a hint of sarcasm in the OP.

LC