Bighorn sheep shrinking due to hunters, study suggests

[czechm8]

I'm curious to hear what folks think of this one, CBC article from today:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/bi...ests-1.2459623

In Alberta, rams may only be legally shot once their horns form four-fifths of a complete circle on either side of their heads, which generally takes four or five years. However, rams don't reach their reproductive peak until a couple of years after that.

That means a disproportionate number of young adults that grow quickly or even at just an average rate are taken before they've had a chance to breed much. It also means that rams who grow slowly and stay relatively small are less likely to wind up at the taxidermist's and more likely to sire more lambs.

The result? "The rams are getting smaller because the big ones are getting shot," said Festa-Bianchet.

[coppercarbide]

Repost, discussion here:

http://outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=201862

[Okotokian]

Wasn't this "finding" pretty much discounted by every other scientist who has studied it? made a big flap when it first came out, but....

[coppercarbide]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Wasn't this "finding" pretty much discounted by every other scientist who has studied it? made a big flap when it first came out, but....

I'd definitely like to see a study that disproves or at least refutes this! Seems like it may be a fairly large problem if true. Any links?

[Lr1000]

Where's sheepguide when you need him?

[Lr1000]

On a serous note. There are so many holes in this way of thinking. Do predators care what size the horns are. I've also seen less then 4/5s rams breed ewes.

[ishootbambi]

cmon guys....everyone knows its all the trappers fault for not killing enough wolves.

[Ultimate Predator]

I would like to see full curl every were and 6 point bull elk to Imo

[rem338win]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Predator

I would like to see full curl every were and 6 point bull elk to Imo

And a harem of blonde bimbos and a never ending fountain of whiskey? Maybe a unicorn?

Genetics don't allow that always allow that.

The article in short tells us to police ourselves and stop dropping every squeaker we have a chance at. If you're willing to read between the lines.

[fast_pass88]

Originally Posted by rem338win

The article in short tells us to police ourselves and stop dropping every squeaker we have a chance at. If you're willing to read between the lines.

Excuse my ignorance, but my understanding is that's the article is saying just the opposite. Hunters are removing the largest rams (when they should be taking the smaller ones too) causing the decrease in horn size, because the genetics for the larger horned animals are more quickly removed from the gene pool, thus leaving the smaller ones to do the breeding.

Not my opinion, just what I thought the article was saying.

If the theory in the article is right, then an idea would be to remove some smaller rams to better diversify the age/horn size of the ram population.

Personally I think it's more of a habitat issue, but I'm no scientist.

[longrange1000]

I believe this has come up with other species as well. Looking through the latest B&C book would be in conflict with this study.

bunch of new bighorn entries in the book, many from Alberta.

I think trophy heads are getting bigger, not smaller

[Lr1000]

The only solution would be to make a certain age legal. Like a 6 or 7 year old ram and ten in full curl. But that's a stupid way to go in my opinion. The system isn't broke. Don't fix it. Every year there are legal rams to hunt. Every year some legal rams live. And no I don't believe everyone needs 10 squeeker rams on they're wall. They aren't whitetail.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by coppercarbide

I'd definitely like to see a study that disproves or at least refutes this! Seems like it may be a fairly large problem if true. Any links?

I'd like to see the evidence that supports this.... gentlemen, attempting to find solutions to someone's opinion, is admitting and believing a problem exists.

We need to keep demanding for full disclosure to all their info, and be offered a chance to do our own study.... but the info is a dead end street.

Also...squeaker ram..doesn't really give a real representation of the size... ill shoot squeaker 190's every time

[mntmanpick]

I just finished reading the entire article and can not believe the amount of flaws and biases that could exist in a professional study. They state that horn length and size has decrease in the last 25 years by 3 cm and attribute this to artificial selection. Did anyone look at the thousands of square km's of top sheep hunting areas that have been lost to Parks, Ecological Reserves and Natural areas since the 1980's. Combined with changes in weather patterns which rarely move these mature sheep until November there has been a large removal of mature rams from the population that can be hunted.

It does not take rocket science to understand if you do not walk by young legal rams and there is a reduction of the amount of mature rams in a hunting area until after the season, horn size and age of harvested rams will be reduced.

[longrange1000]

It's possible to take any data set and skew it for a desired result. Who knows, maybe the 7 year old rams have increased horn length over the last 25 years?

Maybe the ram population has increased over the past 25 years and the horn length decrease is because of increased breeding competition and rams broom more now because of this?

Many holes in this one OPINION. I am confident that a contrary conclusion could result from the same data that this author used.

[stringer]

http://www.skinnymoose.com/bbb/2009/...rophy-hunting/

[fast_pass88]

Originally Posted by stringer

http://www.skinnymoose.com/bbb/2009/...rophy-hunting/

Wow, great read. Thanks for posting that.

Found this bit interesting, that Giest was influencial in this:

1) A student of mine, Mrs. Beth MacCallum, was instrumental in the matter of rehabilitating coal strip mines to custom-built bighorn sheep habitat close to Hinton in Alberta. For us this experiment was a test if we understood sheep ecology, as we claimed we did. When all was said and done, mountain sheep reproduction exploded! Bighorns from Jasper National Park visiting the custom-built sheep ranges voted with their feet, and never returned to the park. The rehabilitate strip mines attracted mule deer, elk, grizzly bears, wolves, wolverines but also birds and the number of nesting birds rose steadily year-by-year. A moon-landscape was transformed into an oasis of life, and spectacularly so. The female sheep doubled in body weight, while the rams grew into the largest seen in North America since the ice ages! Their horn sizes broke all North American records! The biggest bighorn rams ever in North America were taken from these rehabilitated strip mines. Why is that not mentioned?

[goldscud]

Festa-Bianchet completed his PhD at the U of C in 1987. He was out along the Sheep river watching Geist's ear tagged pets quite often back then.
This present study looks like he just looked at registered horns over the recent past and made an observation based on what hunters turned in. How close this guess is to the reality on the mountain is certainly open to discussion.