Interesting Take on TO Streetcar Shooting

[NEWB]

The Toronto Police rarely co-operate with the SIU...

Who would have thought...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...ing-yatim.html

It's a nice pattern the TPS have that is determent to their credibility...

[TomCanuck]

Here's another take on use of force:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/...-training.html

needless to say, the video does not tell the whole story. It's quite possible the officer involved saw signs that indicated an immediate threat to himself.

I know if I saw the signs, I wouldn't be waiting for them to act on them. Why should I or anyone wait for an attacker to have the advantage of momentum.

What happened to that kid was bad, but he initiated it my view. Bad things happen.

[AbAngler]

Too hard to tell from the first video, but the new one from a security camera makes me think the police have some explaining to do. He is clearly not coming towards them at all. Then as he's laying there, done, he gets shot a few more times.

Scumbag or not, which is beside the point, I definitely think this could have been handled better.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Iron Brew

That sounds more like hyperglycemic. Hypo is the opposite... low sugars. Activity drops sugars extremely fast at this point, and they will run down, whatever. They cannot go for very long when their sugars are done. Hyper? Different end of the spectrum. Much more in control of their actions.

Either way they have a genuinely medical reason for their behaviour. By the comments of many on this forum, they could well be shot for it. THIS is why I get sensitive about some police shootings.

Most folks that I've seen that were hypo...simply acted drunk or began to weep....or both...til they crash completely.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by AbAngler

Too hard to tell from the first video, but the new one from a security camera makes me think the police have some explaining to do. He is clearly not coming towards them at all. Then as he's laying there, done, he gets shot a few more times.

Scumbag or not, which is beside the point, I definitely think this could have been handled better.

Anyone has a link for that second video?

[AbAngler]

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/officer...fied-1.1390107

Bottom of the page.

[Iron Brew]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

Most folks that I've seen that were hypo...simply acted drunk or began to weep....or both...til they crash completely.

Under symptoms

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/000386.htm

It is not common. I have a fair amount of experience with diabetics. Mostly they get goofy/"drunk", can't talk sense to them, etc. but the aggression worries me IF they are around people who haven't got a clue. I had noticed it but hadn't paid attention till I took someone to an emergency room, and the EXPERIENCED nurse asked some questions, then dragged along two security guys, under strict instructions to do ONLY what she told them, when she told them, regardless of what happened. We were able to get the patient into the emerg without further incident.

I've read that hyperglycemia can cause similar, but I've never seen it.

My point is though, there may be genuine medical reasons for behaviour that isn't acceptable. Strategies must be in place to prevent any shootings/actions that aren't necessary.

[Chard1906]

Originally Posted by AbAngler

Too hard to tell from the first video, but the new one from a security camera makes me think the police have some explaining to do. He is clearly not coming towards them at all. Then as he's laying there, done, he gets shot a few more times.

Scumbag or not, which is beside the point, I definitely think this could have been handled better.

That's how I see it too. Regretable Incident.

[Percher]

I read all the posts and I'm wondering what it is with so many trolls on a Sportsmens forum posting nonsense.
I also watched the videos of the shooting. Not one of over a dozen cops took composed control of the situation. I don't see any imminent threat to police on the videos until one scared-stiff cop plugs 9 shots into a obviously unhinged person and then another cop quickly tasers him while he is dying. What happened to Situation, Asses, Plan, and Act? Who was more panic-stricken, the kid, the shooter or the other officers?
There have been literally dozens of inquests that have recommended better police training protocol to de-escalate these types of conflicts. Why didn't someone call for the specially trained police to deal with those situations instead of escalating it into a deadly tragedy so quickly?

[waterhawk]

[QUOTE=Mike_W;2059585]There use to be a time when a cop pointed a gun at someone they would give up because they knew the consequence, we now live in a society that doesn't respect authority and laughs at cops with guns.
Don't know the situation around this case but the kid should have listened to the guys with the guns and not challenged them.
It's a tough job to be a cop in that position and the video really only shows one side of the story. I will admit when I watched the video those extra 6 shots made go yikes that sounded excessive but that's a hard call to make.
Cops are to be listened to and respected.[/QUOTE]

Mike: These cops had no way of knowing if this guy could hear them or was intellectually impaired. There are a number of people out there that can't hear at all. There are also a number of people that are permanently unable to comprehend situations and consequences the way an average person does, for example a mentally retarded person or a person suffering from some mental illnesses. There are also people that on occasion act in a manner that is completely out of character for them by reason temporary illness such as diabetes. Also, which is probably the case here, some people on occasion ingest alcohol and/or drugs that causes them not to listen to the commands of authorities. Sometimes the drugs are taken unknowingly. From the way this guy was acting it would seem that he definitely was not normal. I don't think that this man's death can be rationalized by simply saying cops need to be listened to and respected.

[Mike_W]

Originally Posted by waterhawk

Mike: These cops had no way of knowing if this guy could hear them or was intellectually impaired. There are a number of people out there that can't hear at all. There are also a number of people that are permanently unable to comprehend situations and consequences the way an average person does, for example a mentally retarded person or a person suffering from some mental illnesses. There are also people that on occasion act in a manner that is completely out of character for them by reason temporary illness such as diabetes. Also, which is probably the case here, some people on occasion ingest alcohol and/or drugs that causes them not to listen to the commands of authorities. Sometimes the drugs are taken unknowingly. From the way this guy was acting it would seem that he definitely was not normal. I don't think that this man's death can be rationalized by simply saying cops need to be listened to and respected.

That's not really what I am saying ...as a general rule cops authority and respect is challenged daily.

I suppose we may find out more on the situation, nothing has been said about a hearing problem or mental issue by the family, and drunk or high people can be the most dangerous. Cops are not doctors or psychologists they are to handle a situation based on what they can determine at the time.
Not saying what was right or what was wrong that's a tough decision....Im sure no cop wants to pull the trigger on a 18 year old kid!

[huntsfurfish]

Not sure what others see, but (imo)shooting started after he moved back toward the doorway and the officers.

[huntsfurfish]

Did the police know for sure there was no one else on the bus? Maybe a victim?

[TomCanuck]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

Not sure what others see, but (imo)shooting started after he moved back toward the doorway and the officers.

Yup, after being repeatedly warned not to. I'm amazed at all the armchair cops here who would seem to take a very casual view of personal safety. The outcome was harsh, but for all we know things could have been worse. If they had lost containment and a civilian was harmed they'd be just as damned by many as they are now.

[raab]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

First - cops don't run away!

Second - they don't want you to get away and hurt someone!

Third - 3 shots minimum.

Fourth - They don't play catch and release when their lives or someone else's is on the line.

None of us were there.

Personally I would like to see them be able to go home to their family!

Agreed,

I'd like to see these tough guys who are saying just go into a small space and pepper spray the guy who is clearly not stable and may be on PCP or have any other assortment of drugs on board. Also perhaps the victim had other weapons that have not been disclosed to the public. We don't know the situation, what i do know is that I highly doubt that the cop would have shot and killed this man if he had other alternatives.

[raab]

Originally Posted by Mike_W

That's not really what I am saying ...as a general rule cops authority and respect is challenged daily.

I suppose we may find out more on the situation, nothing has been said about a hearing problem or mental issue by the family, and drunk or high people can be the most dangerous. Cops are not doctors or psychologists they are to handle a situation based on what they can determine at the time.
Not saying what was right or what was wrong that's a tough decision....Im sure no cop wants to pull the trigger on a 18 year old kid!

Exactly!! That cop is most likely going to have heavy PTSD, and need CISD and counselling to deal with it. It's going to effect him for the rest of his life, not that any of the people on here care about that.

[fish gunner]

Yep get all the non perps off the bus , every one in uniform throw a un marked random grenade. Know one knows who threw the frag . Lol civilised world yep thats us . The upper hand, no , little bit of bravery. Put one self in harms way. Any one. angels fear to... oh never mind bang bang .. bang ...and so on.

[TomCanuck]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

Yep get all the non perps off the bus , every one in uniform throw a un marked random grenade. Know one knows who threw the frag . Lol civilised world yep thats us . The upper hand, no , little bit of bravery. Put one self in harms way. Any one. angels fear to... oh never mind bang bang .. bang ...and so on.

No knife, most likely no funeral. When I go to work, my intension is to come home afterwards. Don't see why anyone else would feel otherwise.

[Fisherpeak]

Originally Posted by TomCanuck

Yup, after being repeatedly warned not to. I'm amazed at all the armchair cops here who would seem to take a very casual view of personal safety. The outcome was harsh, but for all we know things could have been worse. If they had lost containment and a civilian was harmed they'd be just as damned by many as they are now.

That`s well said.Bottom line is don`t be waving deadly weapons in public.If there had been a kid under the seat and he killed her.......
Cops did what they had to do,too bad so sad for his family but hell,should have raised him better.Shame about all the wasted ammo.............

[chadyaz]

Originally Posted by raab

Exactly!! That cop is most likely going to have heavy PTSD, and need CISD and counselling to deal with it. It's going to effect him for the rest of his life, not that any of the people on here care about that.

I'm sure you are right. Shooting a man 3 times in quick succession causing him to fall to the ground, pausing for 5 seconds, then shooting him 6 more times in the next 5 seconds would have a negative affect mentally on most people

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by Fisherpeak

That`s well said.Bottom line is don`t be waving deadly weapons in public.If there had been a kid under the seat and he killed her.......
Cops did what they had to do,too bad so sad for his family but hell,should have raised him better.Shame about all the wasted ammo.............

If he had diabetis he was murderd , if charles had knokkers he'd be a queen.

[fargineyesore]

None of you believe that there are cops out there that actually want to use their guns? Really??? I do, I don't doubt that is one of the reasons some of these guys join up. Their willingness to pull the trigger when there are other avenues that could have been used, as reported in the paper by an ex Toronto cop, seem to bear that out. I don't for one moment believe this cop feels bad about this. No one can justify the second set of shots. This guy is a scumbag murderer, plain and simple and should go to jail for life. The rest of the idiots that were there with him should also be fired.

[fargineyesore]

Originally Posted by Fisherpeak

That`s well said.Bottom line is don`t be waving deadly weapons in public.If there had been a kid under the seat and he killed her.......
Cops did what they had to do,too bad so sad for his family but hell,should have raised him better.Shame about all the wasted ammo.............

Did what they had to do??? Did what they wanted to do, is more like it.

[fargineyesore]

Originally Posted by TomCanuck

No knife, most likely no funeral. When I go to work, my intension is to come home afterwards. Don't see why anyone else would feel otherwise.

You're not a cop that is expected to put himself in danger. They know that when they sign up. If their only response is to shoot people who don't immediately do what they say, then maybe they should find another line of work.

[TomCanuck]

Originally Posted by fargineyesore

You're not a cop that is expected to put himself in danger. They know that when they sign up. If their only response is to shoot people who don't immediately do what they say, then maybe they should find another line of work.

No knife, most likely no funeral. No one signs up to get stabbed. A gun is not a complete defense against a knife. You might think it noble to roll the dice in such a situation. I'm guessing you don't wear a sidearm at work.

[raab]

Originally Posted by fargineyesore

You're not a cop that is expected to put himself in danger. They know that when they sign up. If their only response is to shoot people who don't immediately do what they say, then maybe they should find another line of work.

They had no way of knowing if everyone was off the bus, the officer had a clear shot and took it. What would you rather have happen? Have your mother/sister/brother in the back of the bus stabbed and bleeding to death as the cops try to reason with the guy who did it. Or have them control the scene as quickly as possible and perhaps save an innocent persons life? The guys under investigation, and if it comes back that he was psychologically unstable then I'll retract my statement. But until then ill side with the policemen in this case.

[fargineyesore]

Originally Posted by TomCanuck

No knife, most likely no funeral. No one signs up to get stabbed. A gun is not a complete defense against a knife. You might think it noble to roll the dice in such a situation. I'm guessing you don't wear a sidearm at work.

There was a CROWD of police officers there, one 18 year old kid with a knife, in the bus, by himself, as the bus had been evacuated. I can tell you though, if this is the way that police are allowed to act with sidearms, then I should be allowed to wear one too, as I could be trusted just as much as these trigger happy idiots with one.

[raab]

Originally Posted by fargineyesore

There was a CROWD of police officers there, one 18 year old kid with a knife, in the bus, by himself, as the bus had been evacuated. I can tell you though, if this is the way that police are allowed to act with sidearms, then I should be allowed to wear one too, as I could be trusted just as much as these trigger happy idiots with one.

There's no way they could have been certain of that at the time. Hindsight is always 20-20 though.

And that last quote is laughable, most of the cops I know hope they can make it through there career without having to use their weapon.

[just_dave]

Sammy Yatim isn't even worth my post.

[fargineyesore]

Originally Posted by just_dave

If some perv pulled a knife on my mom, sister or loved one...

I don't disagree with that. What this kid did was disgusting. But when the shots were fired, the only altercation at the time of the shooting was between this kid and a crowd of police officers that were ALL more heavily armed than he was, and with training. Your telling me that an 18 year old kid with a knife, in a bus, is a threat to a crowd of cops?? Why to we bother training these cops then, if they're just going to open fire at the first sign of a threat?? Why didn't the Montreal cops just to shoot that 73 year old man then? They did it right, these guys didn't.