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02-09-2012, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistagin
Re post # 51
I was looking for a simple answer - would Jesus be a good or bad leader? I wasn't looking for all kinds of speculation about what might or might not be.
Good attempt at deflection though.
Re "what produces the bad-ness" question. Good start to the answer, but there's a simple one-word one that gets right to the heart of the matter. I wonder if you know it, or just don't want to go there.
Re: Penn Jillette's 10 Suggestions. I suppose, being suggestions, they would be optional? Not at all having the weight of divine 'Commandments'. Yup they are full of common sense, thus would be good for civil society. Some of them sound an awful lot like some ancient commandments though - well, except they remove "God" from the picture and move 'man' into His place in those ancient commandments.
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I thought you were Christian and not Jewish. Sorry I must have missed something. Please explain.
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02-09-2012, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3
So now we are interpreting what the bible means?
What happened to the literalism? What happened to the inerrantcy?
You have to see how this type of picking and choosing of what is real and what is not causes many to look very askew at the whole.
Can't you see that?
But that is EXACTLY the point... fundamentalist and evangelicals quote chapter and verse on some points and tell the world that it is the inerrant bible that tells us so, and then, when questioned on some points, the rest of us are told not to take it so literally.
You can't have it both ways... either the bible is literal or it isn't.
If it isn't, then doesn't that substantiate my much earlier comment that if it is taken allegorically and metaphorically, that the spiritual message is much stronger then if any part of it is taken literally?
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those people are called cafeteria christians, here's the wikipedia link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cafeteria_Christianity
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02-09-2012, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistagin
[Quote:
wow! You sure like to make inflammatory comparisons! Calvin was nothing like hitler!
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Agreed, he didn't kill millions. But he did have many put through a horrible death. So it's just a matter of degree, isn't it?
You know the story of the guy walking up to a girl and asking if she would sleep with him for $1 million. She thinks about it, and agrees, as she will never see that kind of money otherwise. He then asks if she would sleep with him for $100, and she slaps his face, asking if he thinks she is a prostitute.
He answers, “We already established that when you agreed to sleep with me for $1 million, now we are just negotiating the price”.
Calvin's actions were like Hitler's, we are just talking about to what degree. Hitler ordered, followers complied. Calvin ordered, followers complied. Hitler set the stage, Calvin set the stage.
And both had a philosophy to back them up.
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do you even try to understand situations / contexts / historical events? (note: Not that i am defending any of it, but lets be honest - s*** happens, and sometimes stuff happens in a situation or context that wouldn't happen at all today!)
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Shiite happens? Sorry, there is no context I can fathom that justifies that. Especially if one of the perpetrators is espousing “Christian” values. That is just so wrong on so many levels. Like the Inquisition, like the Crusades, like the Taliban, and like so many other vile and despicable acts done in the name of religion.
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why do you persist in blaming god (the christian god of the bible) for stuff people do? It only shows how little you actually know and understand about him.
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Seeing many that Christian leaders did and do things most of us would find repulsive “in the name of Christianity”, what other perspective is one to take? And why in the name of who ever you hold holy would you follow a person's teachings who took part in horrible crimes? I just don't get it how anyone, and I mean anyone, excuse a persons crimes because “they are just human”, and then turn around and subscribe to that person's outline of a faith.
If a person was a pedophile, would you want to subscribe to his faith teachings? Unless your answer is yes, why would you do that for a criminal who orders burnings at the stake? By excusing it “because it was the times”?
I cannot fathom that at all.
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Calvin taught truth about scripture - that the nt doesn't change the ot. It is a continuation of the story and jesus clarifies and explains the ot. The nt 'completes' the ot.
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Yes, I fully understand the difference between a Calvanistic viewpoint of the NT and OT verus some other Christian sects. Although I am not quite sure how one reconciles predestination with faith. To be honest with you, I have some problems with the material/economic success being a keystone of a faith. As I do with his viewpoint on a theocratic government... Iran and the Taliban have that same viewpoint.
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wow, just wow! That's inflammatory! And dead wrong! It's also very, very , very offensive. And it shows how little you know or understand about calvin, matters of the faith he taught, true biblical faith, and i would have to conclude - a whole lot of other christian leaders throughout the ages. But you are entitled to your opinion and i will respect that.*
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But both the Taliban and Calvin taught that a theocracy was good thing. Your not dening that is a keystone of Calvin's philosophy, are you?
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02-09-2012, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nof60
I thought you were Christian and not Jewish. Sorry I must have missed something. Please explain.
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??? I'd try to explain if I knew what you were asking. Ya must have missed something back there somewhere - back in post # 51 maybe.
avb3 and I have been going back and forth quite a bit, some of the posts with replies embedded in them have gotten a bit long (sorry) and I'm even getting confused with what's been said where .
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02-09-2012, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistagin
??? I'd try to explain if I knew what you were asking. Ya must have missed something back there somewhere - back in post # 51 maybe.
avb3 and I have been going back and forth quite a bit, some of the posts with replies embedded in them have gotten a bit long (sorry) and I'm even getting confused with what's been said where .
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So do you follow all the laws laid down in the OT? Or just the Ten Commandments? Who determines which ones to follow and which to ignore? Who determines which set of ten commandments are the correct ones? Is the Sabbath Saturday or Sunday? Do you keep the Sabbath holy?
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02-09-2012, 05:35 PM
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This is a very good segment by athiest bill maher about the death of bin laden, it's quite interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAvDtPz33w0
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02-09-2012, 05:40 PM
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More questions
Why do you think your rather insignificant (numbers wise) part of Christianity is the right one? Over Catholocism? Over mormanism? Over snake handleing?
Why do you think Christianity has any more authenticity than Islam? Judaism? Budhism? Hinduism or even shamanism?
How do you feel Martin Luther was any more credible than Joseph Smith?
What makes you so sure Christ even existed? There is no historicle reference to him from the period of his life. We can prove that Muhammed lived. We can even prove Buddha existed but we cannot prove that Jesus even existed?
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02-09-2012, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistagin
Re post # 51
I was looking for a simple answer - would Jesus be a good or bad leader? I wasn't looking for all kinds of speculation about what might or might not be.
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Clearly a disruptive one, including to those of faith. Everything I said hearkens back to things that would be different from the way most perceive it today. You know, like the Sunday thing. Or the adult vs. child baptism.
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Re "what produces the bad-ness" question. Good start to the answer, but there's a simple one-word one that gets right to the heart of the matter. I wonder if you know it, or just don't want to go there.
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Does it involve, as Venezuelan President Chavez once said at the UN about Bush, sulpher?
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Re: Penn Jillette's 10 Suggestions. I suppose, being suggestions, they would be optional? Not at all having the weight of divine 'Commandments'. Yup they are full of common sense, thus would be good for civil society. Some of them sound an awful lot like some ancient commandments though - well, except they remove "God" from the picture and move 'man' into His place in those ancient commandments
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I believe the original actually said commandments, it was my editorial to change it to suggestions. The origin was that Glenn Beck challenged Jillette to come up with an atheist equivalent of the biblical 10 Commandments, so he did.
Actually, they are much better then the original ones. I mean, who would want to cook a baby goat in it's mother's milk anyways or offer the blood of their sacrifice with leavened bread. That just is plain weird. (Exodus 34)
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02-09-2012, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastcoast
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I can't stand that leftwing looney tune, but he kind of nailed it.
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02-09-2012, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3
I can't stand that leftwing looney tune, but he kind of nailed it.
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bill maher is all over the map with politics, seems mostly liberatarion with some left and right thrown in on certain things, I don't watch regularly but he did nail this one. and of course it goes along with my cafeteria christian thingy
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02-09-2012, 05:53 PM
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Bad facts
Quote:
Originally Posted by nof60
More questions
Why do you think your rather insignificant (numbers wise) part of Christianity is the right one? Over Catholocism? Over mormanism? Over snake handleing?
Why do you think Christianity has any more authenticity than Islam? Judaism? Budhism? Hinduism or even shamanism?
How do you feel Martin Luther was any more credible than Joseph Smith?
What makes you so sure Christ even existed? There is no historicle reference to him from the period of his life. We can prove that Muhammed lived. We can even prove Buddha existed but we cannot prove that Jesus even existed?
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Your are sorely mistaken. There is in fact a "wanted" poster that was put out by the sanhadrin for Jesus. Josepheus refers to Jesus. I believe that either suetonius or pliny the younger roman historians refer to him as well. Plus the witnesses that were with him during his life that wrote the Gospels.
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02-09-2012, 05:55 PM
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why is jesus white?
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02-09-2012, 06:00 PM
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I actually agree with him
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastcoast
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Though i am a practicing Christian i agree with Bill's statements. I disagree with his worldview but his critisim of christians in this situation is reasonable. His words are offensive and inflamatory but his logic is sound. We as Christians should consider this and strive to be better followers of Jesus. Thankfully we are not required to be perfect because Jesus was perfect and all we are required to do is accept his righteousness in place of our own.
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02-09-2012, 06:03 PM
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Simple answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastcoast
why is jesus white?
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European ethnocentricity in art. Jesus likely looked middle eastern or medditereanian.
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02-09-2012, 06:03 PM
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Here goes, as briefly as I can:
Quote:
Originally Posted by nof60
So do you follow all the laws laid down in the OT? No, some were meant for the OT people of Israel.
Or just the Ten Commandments? Yes, however, I understand the 10 commandments of the Bible to be the basic 'short-form' of God's 'law' and all other godly 'law' is derived and extrapolated from them
Who determines which ones to follow and which to ignore?
Of the 10 Commandments? Follow all of them, don't ignore any. They are divine commandments, not 'suggestions' or options.Beyond that it depends on whether or not 'commands' were for the OT people or for all people of all time - if the latter then follow Jesus' teaching
Who determines which set of ten commandments are the correct ones?
Assuming you are asking about Exodus and Deuteronomy's versions - both a valid and correct, they say the same thing, Deuteronomy is a bit more expanded.
Is the Sabbath Saturday or Sunday?
Saturday for OT Jews and 7th Day Adventists. Most other Christians hold Sunday as the Lord's Day due to it being the day Jesus rose from the dead.
Do you keep the Sabbath holy?
Yes, to the very best of my ability - as I understand it to be - to worship God in community and just take delight in enjoying His blessings. NOte: I am a pastor so in a way I get to enjoy a seven day a week 'Sabbath"
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Oops, edit, I was going to add this: in my Biblical Christian worldview the principle "law" that governs all others is: Love the Lord your God with everything you've got, and love your neighbour as yourself. Jesus said, "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these."
Last edited by Mistagin; 02-09-2012 at 06:08 PM.
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02-09-2012, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg
Your are sorely mistaken. There is in fact a "wanted" poster that was put out by the sanhadrin for Jesus. Josepheus refers to Jesus. I believe that either suetonius or pliny the younger roman historians refer to him as well. Plus the witnesses that were with him during his life that wrote the Gospels.
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References or it didn't happen
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02-09-2012, 06:23 PM
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Dr Paul Maier
Quote:
Originally Posted by nof60
References or it didn't happen
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There is a picture of the poster in Dr Paul L Maier (University of Western Michigan) book in the fullness of time.
Further references include Peter Matthew Mark John whose books were written within there lifetimes and the lifetimes of Jesus.
And this from wikipedia
JosephusMain article: Josephus on Jesus
Flavius Josephus (c. 37–c. 100), a Jew and Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavians, wrote the Antiquities of the Jews in 93 CE. In these works, Jesus is mentioned twice, though scholars debate their authenticity. The one directly concerning Jesus has come to be known as the Testimonium Flavianum.
In the first passage, called the Testimonium Flavianum, it is written:
About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease to follow him, for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvellous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.[71]
Is that what you were looking for?
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02-09-2012, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg
There is a picture of the poster in Dr Paul L Maier (University of Western Michigan) book in the fullness of time.
Further references include Peter Matthew Mark John whose books were written within there lifetimes and the lifetimes of Jesus.
And this from wikipedia
JosephusMain article: Josephus on Jesus
Flavius Josephus (c. 37–c. 100), a Jew and Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavians, wrote the Antiquities of the Jews in 93 CE. In these works, Jesus is mentioned twice, though scholars debate their authenticity. The one directly concerning Jesus has come to be known as the Testimonium Flavianum.
In the first passage, called the Testimonium Flavianum, it is written:
About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease to follow him, for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvellous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.[71]
Is that what you were looking for?
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All written 30 to 50 years after his death. There is absolutely no text written about him during the time he was alive. Strange seeing as how the romans were great record keepers.
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02-09-2012, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nof60
All written 30 to 50 years after his death. There is absolutely no text written about him during the time he was alive. Strange seeing as how the romans were great record keepers.
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x2!!!
Josephus is viewed by many scholars as not exactly a reliable source, with a very strong suspicion of words being added at a later time.
Why do the Romans not have any of those records?
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02-09-2012, 07:52 PM
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I reply to the previous two comments
Firstly i want to thank you for your respectful and lively debate. You have both put alot of thought into this and it seems like your seeking the truth.
I want to address that there isnt any evidence or mention of Jesus Christ during the time he walked the earth. As Dr Maier demonstrated there was a wanted poster for Jesus put out by the Sanhadrin that read as follows
"Wanted Yeshu Hannozri"
He shall be stoned becasue he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Anyone who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. Anyone who knows where he is let him declare it to the great Sanhedrin in Jerusalem.
I hope this is what you were looking for. I hope it helps you understand that he was a real person.
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02-09-2012, 08:01 PM
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Further rebutal to No60
Your burden of Historical proof seems a bit unrealistic regarding historical figures.
For example Tacitus "Annals of Imperial Rome" is one of the chief historical sources for the Roman world of of the New Testament period yet suprisingly it survives in only 2 manuscripts dating from the Middle ages yet we believe people mentioned in his writings were real and existed.
There are only 10 copies of Ceasars Gallic Wars eight copies of Herodotus History and seven copies of Plato all dated over a millenium from the originall and we dont question the historical accuracy of those documents or the people mentioned therin.
So in short i think we can agree Julius Ceasar existed and so did Jesus Christ.
If you want i can compare and contrast the evidence of the biblical manuscripts with that of the above mentioned historical documents Let me know if this would be of interest to you.
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02-09-2012, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg
There is a picture of the poster in Dr Paul L Maier (University of Western Michigan) book in the fullness of time.
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Can't find anything about that.
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Further references include Peter Matthew Mark John whose books were written within there lifetimes and the lifetimes of Jesus.
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First of all, biblical scholars agree NONE of the gospels were written within the life time of Jesus. In fact, most also question even who they were written by. If they were written by disciples, why in not in Aramaic, which was the language Jesus would have used. Especially since we are talking about people who in all likelihood were not literate... they were fishermen, right?
Peter wrote a gospel? Pray tell, where one would find it.
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02-09-2012, 08:40 PM
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The Gospel of Mark
mark wrote Peter's account of the events. And your right they were written after his death by the eyewitness to the events thank you for your correction sometimes i have fat fingers when i type.
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02-09-2012, 08:44 PM
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big bang ,billions of years, dust clouds becoming panets &suns, life evolving for million's of years, humans developing. PT,barnum and one born evey minute.this make lots of sense.sky guy and his long hair child poping down for an intervention once in a while. bit of a long shot,in my estimation.
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02-09-2012, 08:47 PM
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Religion is for those who believe, without proof or evidence...as there is none.
In all fairness and accuracy, many are practicing pagmatism not Christianity.
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02-09-2012, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnodisiac
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This opening presentation seems more than adequate considering that this thread, if I am correct, was started as a result of the spiritual issues that were being discussed earlier in the Freemasonry thread. I believe the intention was to continue in the discussion of spiritual or religious viewpoints, providing the members of AO the opportunity to express their views and opinions (even debate if necessary), regardless of the content of their beliefs. Please correct me if I’m wrong and have misunderstood if that is what this thread entitled Worldviews was agreed upon?
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02-09-2012, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3
x2!!!
Josephus is viewed by many scholars as not exactly a reliable source, with a very strong suspicion of words being added at a later time.
Why do the Romans not have any of those records?
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correct, but there are numerous roman writtings and other documents that confirm the movement of Christianity plus it's growth as the movement of the spirit began to encompass the world. Many of these documents were done by those who opposed the movement, but were used to prove the movement and the event did actual take place. Look at how opposing spirits tried to quash the movement (Nero) but were unsuccessful. Ever ask yourself why? Paul the excellent "salesman" was not in the picture, other than his writtings.
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02-09-2012, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arn?Narn.
Religion is for those who believe, without proof or evidence...as there is none.
In all fairness and accuracy, many are practicing pagmatism not Christianity.
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I believe it was Plato that said that the unseen chair is the real chair for the real chair is a manifestation of ones consciousness in which the real chair existed (I trust avb3 to correct me if I’m wrong). Like wise the Bible would be considered by the believer as the manifestation of God’s word, presented through his creation as His spirit revealed it. Therefore revealing the mind of God. So in retrospect it becomes Real Evidence because it has it has been manifested in the Physical plan. This would likely explain what was meant by the Biblical verse in Rom 1:20 “For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”
In respect to who is practicing paganism, you would have to be more specific as this relates to the judgments of your own experiences.
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02-09-2012, 10:47 PM
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I would implore you to read this book.
I found it refreshing once my eyes opened and I saw the truth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMqTEfeqvmM
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02-09-2012, 11:20 PM
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Great Debate
This is a great debate between 2 PhD's on these topics and is excellent
http://youtu.be/9qT1pp_jCUw
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