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05-27-2010, 03:00 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Lethbridge, A. B.
Posts: 1,116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulo gulo
I must admit I have always been a big “energy kills” fan, but after reading this thread with an open mind, I may have to change the way I think. I shoot a 7mm Rem Mag with 160 NP loaded hot, this combo on deer sized game leaves big exit holes. I have killed many deer with this load that were hit very poorly; some I am still not sure how they died. I feel that if those poor shots were made with a gun that didn’t have the power to leave those big holes I would have lost those deer. Large exist holes (IMHO) should not just be attributed to a larger caliber; you need a combination of bullet construction, velocity and bullet weight to achieve this. Even though I am still a little confused as to ‘how much’ energy plays a role in killing I think I understand it more than before I read this thread. That being said, I think that nobody knows all the answers yet, as there are so many variables to contend with.
Sheephunter,
I have thinking about getting a 270wsm for sheep hunting. On the episode where you and your hunting partner killed a bunch of mulie does, with I believe 140 accubonds, how were the exit holes (if any) at the different ranges?
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In my mind it really can not hurt to have both, the old one two punch sort of speak. Holes and energy or energy and holes how ever you see it they are a deadly combination when the two are combined.
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05-27-2010, 03:09 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,139
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Unless I missed it (not that it has ever happend before) but I am surpried on how little the big bore folks stirred the pot, not much shock power there, but there is no doubting a BigBore's viability.
But I guess for them it's big holes for the win
You know the old Jack O'Conner vs Elmer Keith thing
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05-27-2010, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crawfy
In my mind it really can not hurt to have both, the old one two punch sort of speak. Holes and energy or energy and holes how ever you see it they are a deadly combination when the two are combined.
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It's pretty well impossible to have one without the either as it does take energy to get the projective there to create the hole. I think it's important to understand how bullets kill so we can make better decisions when placing shots and selecting bullets. Highly frangible bullets are a poor choice for large game yet they "dump" all their energy in an animal where a well constructed bullet uses that same amount of energy to achieve penetration. How the bullet works with the energy is far more important than what that energy does to the animal. Because in the case of highly frangible bullets, we see that energy is basically useless when talking large game. With a well constructed bullet, it's very useful.
I think it's also important to realize how important shot placement is and despite the odd lucky shot, unless you hit a vital organ or major blood supply the animal may not be killed. Talk of shots in the leg stopping the heart aren't something I'd like to see promoted because the majority of the time they don't. Yes, energy is required for a bullet to do its job but that about the only thing energy is responsible for in 90+% of cases from the research I've done.
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05-27-2010, 03:37 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 28
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I'd invite anyone in the "energy isn't important" camp to strap on a bullet proof vest and volunteer to be shot by an expert marksman. I can't see why you wouldn't gladly accept the challenge if it's only big holes that kill.
If that proposal isn't enough to change your mind, then I can't wait to hear your thoughts after the fact, once your broken ribs have healed up.
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05-27-2010, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tunstall
I'd invite anyone in the "energy isn't important" camp to strap on a bullet proof vest and volunteer to be shot by an expert marksman. I can't see why you wouldn't gladly accept the challenge if it's only big holes that kill.
If that proposal isn't enough to change your mind, then I can't wait to hear your thoughts after the fact, once your broken ribs have healed up.
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Yes, bruising and possibly even broken ribs but why don't people die when all that energy is "dumped". I've yet to hear anyone in this thread say that energy doesn't do damage...that's been proven time and time again with temporary wound channels. It's just not the magic that some figure. Bruising and broken ribs are a long ways from stopping your heart or brain. It's not a case of whether energy does damage, of course it does. It's case of the degree of damage and your bulletproof vest example proves that nicely.
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05-27-2010, 03:59 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
Yes, bruising and possibly even broken ribs but why don't people die when all that energy is "dumped". I've yet to hear anyone in this thread say that energy doesn't do damage...that's been proven time and time again with temporary wound channels. It's just not the magic that some figure. Bruising and broken ribs are a long ways from stopping your heart or brain. It's not a case of whether energy does damage, of course it does. It's case of the degree of damage and your bulletproof vest example proves that nicely.
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because the vest is specifically designed to spread out and absorb the energy? (Also, people do die, because most vests cannot stand up to the energy in the bullet on anything beyond handgun calibres.)
Magic? Stop your heart or brain? I dunno know, never claimed it was or would. but it'll knock you on your butt and put you in a world of hurt, so I don't imagine the deer enjoy it either.
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05-27-2010, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
because the vest is specifically designed to spread out and absorb the energy? (Also, people do die, because most vests cannot stand up to the energy in the bullet on anything beyond handgun calibres.)
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Yup people do die when the bullet penetrates the vest, because then that bullet creates a hole.
The bullet-proof vest is likely the best example there is in confirming all of the research I've done.
Quote:
but it'll knock you on your butt and put you in a world of hurt, so I don't imagine the deer enjoy it either.
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Don't think anyone will disagree but it still doesn't do much to say energy kills. No one that I know or that I've read in the thread has ever said that there isn't remote wounding caused by hydrodamic pulse. A world of hurt is still a long way from a brain-stopping shockwave though......
Last edited by sheephunter; 05-27-2010 at 04:16 PM.
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05-27-2010, 04:29 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
Yup people do die when the bullet penetrates the vest, because then that bullet creates a hole.
The bullet-proof vest is likely the best example there is in confirming all of the research I've done.
Don't think anyone will disagree but it still doesn't do much to say energy kills. No one that I know or that I've read in the thread has ever said that there isn't remote wounding caused by hydrodamic pulse. A world of hurt is still a long way from a brain-stopping shockwave though......
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I don't intend to argue with you, because from what I've seen, that's pointless.
Besides, I think we basically agree. I'm not even sure why youre responding. I never said anything about a brain stopping shockwave I dont' even know where that came rfom. My point was simply that energy is at least as important if not more important than holes. It clearly does transfer, and without it, you don't have big holes or impact trauma, you'd have a stab wound the size of a pen.
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05-27-2010, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tunstall
I never said anything about a brain stopping shockwave I dont' even know where that came rfom.
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It came from this thread.....
But you are right, I think we basically agree.
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05-27-2010, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulo gulo
Sheephunter,
I have thinking about getting a 270wsm for sheep hunting. On the episode where you and your hunting partner killed a bunch of mulie does, with I believe 140 accubonds, how were the exit holes (if any) at the different ranges?
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Most did exit but exit hole was pretty average. I really like this bullet for sure.
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05-27-2010, 07:11 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,707
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After reading 9 pages still not sure what the "myth" of energy transfer is?
Something is pushing the bullet, making it expand and causing all the damage to tissue and bone.
From my experience, the more "energy" the faster the bullet, more energy, more damage? A hole is the result of a bullet and energy, so I say it had a very big part in the whole deal. Cause and effect, one thing cannot happen without the other.
BTW- the animals that I have had flop over dead after the shot I am sure they did not know they were shot and pass out because of the idea that they were shot!
Not looking to enter into a debate, just my unscientific observation.
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05-27-2010, 07:17 PM
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One of the myths are that energy kills through these massive shockwaves no matter where the bullet is placed. Another is that there is massive amounts of remote wounding from energy...enough to cause death. Surely you read that along the way in this thread.
The myths surround that remote energy, not the energy in the bullet at the permanent wound channel. That kind of goes without saying...I thought..
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05-27-2010, 07:30 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,707
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after 9 pages I may have skimmed over a bit.
There was quite a bit of discounting energys role in some posts, thought that went without saying..
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05-27-2010, 08:23 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Peace Country (again)
Posts: 3,495
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The original debate was not about the energy sending a bullet downrange,..it was that the energy on impact does or does not cause lethal damage beyond the hole created by the bullet,...it does not.
There are so many people using so many different terms that no one is arguing on the same point.
No one said, that I saw, that energy was not required. Of course it is. And yes it is a huge factor,.. energy is what enables the bullet to make the hole.
a fork brings the food to place it needs to go, the nutrition comes from the food hitting the right place. The weight of your fork has nothing to do with it... it is just an enabler,..nothing more.
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05-27-2010, 08:30 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Grande Prairie
Posts: 218
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I watched my wife shoot a moose with a .243 at 100yrds, i had a .340 as backup, it pancaked and no i didn't shoot. I shot a bull elk twice broadside at 190 yards with a 300 weatherby it ran away and grew a gimped horn the next year. I shot a mature whitetail with a .340 on the run at better than 400 hit him behind the feed bag, infront of his hind leg no vitals he died, some internal bleeding but not that much. I then read an article about what the heart was doing on point of impact and thought maybe that was why? Watched my father shoot a mature whitetail with a 6.5 at 150, 200, 400 dropped it all three times, never found it. That bullet has great SD, hand loaded as well pushing better than 45000psi. Both come into play for a hunting bullet. One thing I'm certain of everything i have shot with a hand loaded 350 barnes 'X' out of my .416 Weatherby has died and i have never had to use a blood light, spend hours looking or watching anything run away wounded. My dad calls in the never have to track anything round, I call it the best all round caliber, everything dies....so far.
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05-27-2010, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LongDraw
after 9 pages I may have skimmed over a bit.
There was quite a bit of discounting energys role in some posts, thought that went without saying..
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Hmmm..never noticed that...perhaps this thread deserves more than a skim......
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05-27-2010, 08:47 PM
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Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem42
I watched my wife shoot a moose with a .243 at 100yrds, i had a .340 as backup, it pancaked and no i didn't shoot. I shot a bull elk twice broadside at 190 yards with a 300 weatherby it ran away and grew a gimped horn the next year. I shot a mature whitetail with a .340 on the run at better than 400 hit him behind the feed bag, infront of his hind leg no vitals he died, some internal bleeding but not that much. I then read an article about what the heart was doing on point of impact and thought maybe that was why? Watched my father shoot a mature whitetail with a 6.5 at 150, 200, 400 dropped it all three times, never found it. That bullet has great SD, hand loaded as well pushing better than 45000psi. Both come into play for a hunting bullet. One thing I'm certain of everything i have shot with a hand loaded 350 barnes 'X' out of my .416 Weatherby has died and i have never had to use a blood light, spend hours looking or watching anything run away wounded. My dad calls in the never have to track anything round, I call it the best all round caliber, everything dies....so far.
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what does thid post have to do with the myth of energy transfer?? The only thing I read is that , according to you , we should all shoot a .416 Weatherby
Another trend I've seen in this thread is the Berger, Ballistic tip, sst endorsers are the ones who believe in the energy myth.
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05-27-2010, 09:09 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
Hmmm..never noticed that...perhaps this thread deserves more than a skim......
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Nah not going to go over every finite point.
I shoot well constructed hunting bullets and know my ballistics; then practice, practice, practice.
The result is dead critters.
This is all I need to know, it has worked for me so far.
Oh- I do know enough however to know that I have to hit'em in the boilermaker to make them tip over for good.
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05-27-2010, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LongDraw
Nah not going to go over every finite point.
I shoot well constructed hunting bullets and know my ballistics; then practice, practice, practice.
The result is dead critters.
This is all I need to know, it has worked for me so far.
Oh- I do know enough however to know that I have to hit'em in the boilermaker to make them tip over for good.
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Ah, so you skimmed rather that read....
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05-27-2010, 09:29 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
Ah, so you skimmed rather that read....
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trolling tj will go.
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05-27-2010, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clakjp
trolling tj will go.
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Or a little good-natured ribbing...you should give it a try. This board can be fun too.
JustinC, you seem to take life way too seriously...lighten up!
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05-27-2010, 09:37 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
Or a little good-natured ribbing...you should give it a try. This board can be fun too.
JustinC, you seem to take life way too seriously...lighten up!
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Who said I was not ribbin you? We already had our talk TJ.I try to have fun on hear aswell.Even with you.
Also Everybody knows who I am. You dont need to post it up in every post.Getting old..... OK TRACY
Last edited by clakjp; 05-27-2010 at 09:51 PM.
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05-27-2010, 09:44 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: medicine hat
Posts: 9,037
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clakjp
Also Everybody knows who I am. You dont need to post it up in every post.Getting old.....
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clakjp is justinc and flint is gary villemaire and yada yada. as long as everyone is behaving themselves who cares? the mods arent dummies and if they felt it was a problem it would be taken care of.
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05-27-2010, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clakjp
Who said I was not ribbin you? We already had our talk TJ.I try to have fun on hear aswell.Even with you.
Also Everybody knows who I am. You dont need to post it up in every post.Getting old..... OK TRACY
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So you had two profiles at the same time? Why on earth would you do that? That does seem in contravention of the spirit if not the rules of the messageboard. I'm really confused...why did you need two profiles at the same time? I honestly don't get it. On most messageboards that would instantly get you banned for life. Seems a bit pathetic to me but whatever I guess. It does make it a bit hard to take anything you or your "friends" say seriously though. Why not just stick to one profile?
Last edited by sheephunter; 05-27-2010 at 10:12 PM.
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05-27-2010, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ishootbambi
clakjp is justinc and flint is gary villemaire and yada yada. as long as everyone is behaving themselves who cares? the mods arent dummies and if they felt it was a problem it would be taken care of.
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It just gets a bit old. When some people can't get others to agree with them, they just invent "freinds" to bolster their arguement or jump in their attempts to further disrupt the board. Pathetic I know, but disruptive none-the-less. I honestly don't get why someone would need more than one profile at a time other to to stir the pot. Some people on here have had more than a dozen profiles.....it just doesn't seem to add to the board. The mods are far more tolerant than I.
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05-27-2010, 10:15 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
So you had two profiles at the same time? Why on earth would you do that? That does seem in contravention of the spirit if not the rules of the messageboard. I'm really confused...why did you need two profiles at the same time? I honestly don't get it. Most messageboards that would instantly get you banned for life. Seems a bit pathetic to me but whatever I guess.
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I did not mean to as I could see any pics with this one so I created the other after no responce from anyone to help me.When I switched something back on this one It let me do what I could not before.Also I did nothing to get banned.Suspended yes.I have talked to Rob about it.So thanks anyway Tracy.
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05-27-2010, 10:21 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: medicine hat
Posts: 9,037
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
It just gets a bit old. When some people can't get others to agree with them, they just invent "freinds" to bolster their arguement or jump in their attempts to further disrupt the board. Pathetic I know, but disruptive none-the-less. I honestly don't get why someone would need more than one profile at a time other to to stir the pot. Some people on here have had more than a dozen profiles.....it just doesn't seem to add to the board. The mods are far more tolerant than I.
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i guess i missed the dates there. i agree, one profile is enough. it brings up a point on anonymity as well. there would be far less internet tough guys if they had a real name and face on their posts.
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05-27-2010, 10:21 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
It just gets a bit old. When some people can't get others to agree with them, they just invent "freinds" to bolster their arguement or jump in their attempts to further disrupt the board. Pathetic I know, but disruptive none-the-less. I honestly don't get why someone would need more than one profile at a time other to to stir the pot. Some people on here have had more than a dozen profiles.....it just doesn't seem to add to the board. The mods are far more tolerant than I.
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When did I or anybody do what you are talking about? I stated why I did.Not to go gang buster on people.Also I will argue till I feal I am wrong or I have no need to continue.I feel everybody has somthing to add to this forum but alot never get a chance to.As long as we keep it in the rules what is the harm.
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05-27-2010, 10:27 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ishootbambi
i guess i missed the dates there. i agree, one profile is enough. it brings up a point on anonymity as well. there would be far less internet tough guys if they had a real name and face on their posts.
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I agree post your real name and pic.
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05-27-2010, 10:32 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Stettler, Alberta
Posts: 1,029
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Energy kills I agree, I was looking at getting a nice 45/70 saddle gun for riding in the back country. I wanted to see how much energy it had for stopping power sorta speaking and found that a 190 grain .308 Win has practically the same ft/lbs of energy at 50 yards as a 45/70.
So with that in mind why do so many buy these rifles for bear protection when you could use something as small as a .308?
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