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01-20-2021, 07:20 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckhead
Not really. Later on Karamojo Bell switched to the .318 Westley Richards (a .330 caliber bullet) and this is what he said;
"wrote that the .318 Westley Richards was a more reliable killer for certain shots than his favoured .275 Rigby, but the .275 Rigby was a "surgeons" rifle.[9] On one occasion Bell used a pair of .318 Westley Richards rifles to take nine elephants with nine shots, he later wrote "In my opinion, the 250gr .318, although far from perfect, approaches most nearly the big game hunter's ideal bullet".[3]
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Over 1000 elephants with the 7x57 and 6x54...and 9 elephants with the 318...sd.306, .326, and then he stepped up to .353! That’s nearly unheard of sd, not readily available now. You can find some really heavy .30 cal and bigger if you look and I think I have seen some sd in the .37 range which is incredible....if bullet and cartridge tech keeps going down this path and they can make these needles longer and longer and still get them down the tubes ok then it just opens the door to higher efficiencies of the powder you burn but also terminal performance...
To see .35 sd in 30 cal needs 235gr, 7mm needs 200gr, .270 needs 190gr and 6.5 would need 172gr. Not sure what twist rates those would require but I’d expect someone will try and take on the Swede with a sub 30 cal 21st century rendition soon. If not planned and Hornady was listening...there’s an idea to watch.
Imagine 170-175gr 6.5 at 2500-2700 fps, bc would be ridiculous, so it would hold velocity forever and wind won’t budge it....penetration potentials would be limitless so you could see some really dynamic performance with moderate constructions that let half the bullet really open up, and recoil would fit a very wide range of peeps. Hmmm
Until then for this thread...to get most out of your grains of powder burned run highest bc/sd bullets you can with appropriate construction for game intended and anything above 2400 fps will be great. Get above .3 sd to really max your penetration potentials.
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01-20-2021, 08:00 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,700
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
I’ve killed three Bison. With “premium” thirty caliber and 7MM bullets. And they died. Pretty abruptly.
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I shot mine with a 378 wby and Barnes tax’s
It didn’t die so fast lol
Well, it had enough life to make it into the bush instead of a easy spot to work on it
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01-20-2021, 08:03 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,700
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote
Over 1000 elephants with the 7x57 and 6x54...and 9 elephants with the 318...sd.306, .326, and then he stepped up to .353! That’s nearly unheard of sd, not readily available now. You can find some really heavy .30 cal and bigger if you look and I think I have seen some sd in the .37 range which is incredible....if bullet and cartridge tech keeps going down this path and they can make these needles longer and longer and still get them down the tubes ok then it just opens the door to higher efficiencies of the powder you burn but also terminal performance...
To see .35 sd in 30 cal needs 235gr, 7mm needs 200gr, .270 needs 190gr and 6.5 would need 172gr. Not sure what twist rates those would require but I’d expect someone will try and take on the Swede with a sub 30 cal 21st century rendition soon. If not planned and Hornady was listening...there’s an idea to watch.
Imagine 170-175gr 6.5 at 2500-2700 fps, bc would be ridiculous, so it would hold velocity forever and wind won’t budge it....penetration potentials would be limitless so you could see some really dynamic performance with moderate constructions that let half the bullet really open up, and recoil would fit a very wide range of peeps. Hmmm
Until then for this thread...to get most out of your grains of powder burned run highest bc/sd bullets you can with appropriate construction for game intended and anything above 2400 fps will be great. Get above .3 sd to really max your penetration potentials.
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Sd has far less influence on penetration compared to bullet construction
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01-20-2021, 09:40 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote
Over 1000 elephants with the 7x57 and 6x54...and 9 elephants with the 318...sd.306, .326, and then he stepped up to .353! That’s nearly unheard of sd, not readily available now. You can find some really heavy .30 cal and bigger if you look and I think I have seen some sd in the .37 range which is incredible....if bullet and cartridge tech keeps going down this path and they can make these needles longer and longer and still get them down the tubes ok then it just opens the door to higher efficiencies of the powder you burn but also terminal performance...
To see .35 sd in 30 cal needs 235gr, 7mm needs 200gr, .270 needs 190gr and 6.5 would need 172gr. Not sure what twist rates those would require but I’d expect someone will try and take on the Swede with a sub 30 cal 21st century rendition soon. If not planned and Hornady was listening...there’s an idea to watch.
Imagine 170-175gr 6.5 at 2500-2700 fps, bc would be ridiculous, so it would hold velocity forever and wind won’t budge it....penetration potentials would be limitless so you could see some really dynamic performance with moderate constructions that let half the bullet really open up, and recoil would fit a very wide range of peeps. Hmmm
Until then for this thread...to get most out of your grains of powder burned run highest bc/sd bullets you can with appropriate construction for game intended and anything above 2400 fps will be great. Get above .3 sd to really max your penetration potentials.
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SD is a good indicator of a bullets ability to penetrate- it is not a good indicator that it will penetrate. That job is left to a bullets SD and construction and momentum.
So lets say a bullet gets to where it is supposed to. Immediate loss off blood pressure to the brain and loss of blood are usually what does the killing. If you agree, lets look a cple of facts. I'm not sure how many gallons of blood a mature Moose contains but it is much more than a Deer. Assuming both are shot in exactly the same place with a bullet of identical construction and penetration capabilities. ... one a .243 cal and the other a.358 cal. The .243 cal will put an expanded .243 cal hole that may go right thru the Moose, the expanded .358 will . Assuming the Moose contains more than twice the amount of blood as does the Deer, I think it is obvious that it would take much larger holes to cause enough blood loss to quickly kill the Moose. The same larger holes will instantly kill the Deer. To me, that makes a good case for larger caliber bullets. SD doesn't kill. Big Holes do. JMO
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
Last edited by Salavee; 01-20-2021 at 09:50 PM.
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01-20-2021, 10:03 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marky_mark
Sd has far less influence on penetration compared to bullet construction
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they are the same thing
'bullet construction' is simply another way to say sdrr - sectional density reduction rate (or potential)
a near minimal deforming round nose military bullet shows max penetration potential as the sd barely changes, if at all
and thanks to Bell we know you can go through a foot of elephant skull into brain pan with sd .306 or better at 2300-2400 fps muzzle velocity so long as that sd remains largely unchanged through it's journey
our hunting bullets today are designed to change sd through their journey and of course that never goes up, it goes down rapidly upon impact, so the trick is matching initial sd with whatever that reduction rate may be to the game intended to ensure adequate penetration
despite this obvious thing...we don't measure this or yet, it's certainly not a widely accepted but go ahead and measure the frontal area and weight of any bullet you've recovered from a critter, get the starting sd from online search, then with new measures you'll see what the end sd was and if you can remember how many inches of critter that bullet went through you can then deduce (at least to the inch) how much sd was reduced per inch (sdrr - sectional density reduction rate, a term i coined here some time ago) and you could also do one better...you could get energy reduction rate (err) figured out also...how many ft/lbs per inch did you dump into that critter as well, you'd need to know your impact velocity of course but if you knew the distance and muzzle velocity then you can get that.....another future number i think we will see in the next chapter of ballistics, stinky coyote will leave a mark on this world yet
some credit i will happily share to the forum of course as the stimulation of these discussions has spurred these amazing discoveries in my mind (under my tinfoil hat) in future ballistics
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01-20-2021, 10:08 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Caroline
Posts: 7,508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marky_mark
Sd has far less influence on penetration compared to bullet construction
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I'm more worried about making a minimum 160 grain "premium" bullet go really fast than I am about sectional density
__________________
Two reasons you may think CO2 is a pollutant
1.You weren't paying attention in grade 5
2. You're stupid
Last edited by MountainTi; 01-20-2021 at 10:17 PM.
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01-20-2021, 10:12 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,700
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainTi
I'm more worried about making a minimum 160 grain "premium" bullet going really fast than I am about sectional density
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Exactly
faster equals more expansion and if they bullet is made of quality construction
Your getting a lot of penetration
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01-20-2021, 10:17 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,700
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote
they are the same thing
'bullet construction' is simply another way to say sdrr - sectional density reduction rate (or potential)
a near minimal deforming round nose military bullet shows max penetration potential as the sd barely changes, if at all
and thanks to Bell we know you can go through a foot of elephant skull into brain pan with sd .306 or better at 2300-2400 fps muzzle velocity so long as that sd remains largely unchanged through it's journey
our hunting bullets today are designed to change sd through their journey and of course that never goes up, it goes down rapidly upon impact, so the trick is matching initial sd with whatever that reduction rate may be to the game intended to ensure adequate penetration
despite this obvious thing...we don't measure this or yet, it's certainly not a widely accepted but go ahead and measure the frontal area and weight of any bullet you've recovered from a critter, get the starting sd from online search, then with new measures you'll see what the end sd was and if you can remember how many inches of critter that bullet went through you can then deduce (at least to the inch) how much sd was reduced per inch (sdrr - sectional density reduction rate, a term i coined here some time ago) and you could also do one better...you could get energy reduction rate (err) figured out also...how many ft/lbs per inch did you dump into that critter as well, you'd need to know your impact velocity of course but if you knew the distance and muzzle velocity then you can get that.....another future number i think we will see in the next chapter of ballistics, stinky coyote will leave a mark on this world yet
some credit i will happily share to the forum of course as the stimulation of these discussions has spurred these amazing discoveries in my mind (under my tinfoil hat) in future ballistics
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The only Mark you are going to leave on this world is one big headache
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01-20-2021, 10:18 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Caroline
Posts: 7,508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marky_mark
Exactly
faster equals more expansion and if they bullet is made of quality construction
Your getting a lot of penetration
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As Roy said, speed kills
__________________
Two reasons you may think CO2 is a pollutant
1.You weren't paying attention in grade 5
2. You're stupid
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01-20-2021, 10:33 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Strathcona County
Posts: 2,170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marky_mark
I shot mine with a 378 wby and Barnes tax’s
It didn’t die so fast lol
Well, it had enough life to make it into the bush instead of a easy spot to work on it
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Well that’s because you were overgunned. Didn’t you know you were supposed to use a 6.5 Grendel?
Pot stirred
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01-20-2021, 10:35 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,700
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainTi
As Roy said, speed kills
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Makes you wonder why anyone ever bought a magnum when there was such a wide range of slow moving, rapidly expanding bullets available
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01-20-2021, 10:35 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote
they are the same thing
'bullet construction' is simply another way to say sdrr - sectional density reduction rate (or potential)
a near minimal deforming round nose military bullet shows max penetration potential as the sd barely changes, if at all
and thanks to Bell we know you can go through a foot of elephant skull into brain pan with sd .306 or better at 2300-2400 fps muzzle velocity so long as that sd remains largely unchanged through it's journey
our hunting bullets today are designed to change sd through their journey and of course that never goes up, it goes down rapidly upon impact, so the trick is matching initial sd with whatever that reduction rate may be to the game intended to ensure adequate penetration
despite this obvious thing...we don't measure this or yet, it's certainly not a widely accepted but go ahead and measure the frontal area and weight of any bullet you've recovered from a critter, get the starting sd from online search, then with new measures you'll see what the end sd was and if you can remember how many inches of critter that bullet went through you can then deduce (at least to the inch) how much sd was reduced per inch (sdrr - sectional density reduction rate, a term i coined here some time ago) and you could also do one better...you could get energy reduction rate (err) figured out also...how many ft/lbs per inch did you dump into that critter as well, you'd need to know your impact velocity of course but if you knew the distance and muzzle velocity then you can get that.....another future number i think we will see in the next chapter of ballistics, stinky coyote will leave a mark on this world yet
some credit i will happily share to the forum of course as the stimulation of these discussions has spurred these amazing discoveries in my mind (under my tinfoil hat) in future ballistics
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Next will be a "study" on Elephant anatomy. My understanding of Bell's shot placement is, that it was a very small area of about three inches in diameter ( similar to a human's temple ).. not a skull 12 inches thick covering the brain pan. The 6.5 is good, but not that good.
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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01-20-2021, 10:44 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Caroline
Posts: 7,508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marky_mark
Makes you wonder why anyone ever bought a magnum when there was such a wide range of slow moving, rapidly expanding bullets available
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lol. Suckers
Sometimes amazes me what people can talk themselves into
__________________
Two reasons you may think CO2 is a pollutant
1.You weren't paying attention in grade 5
2. You're stupid
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01-21-2021, 08:49 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
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lol also, it amazes me how we all say nearly the same thing just understand it differently
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01-21-2021, 09:01 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marky_mark
Makes you wonder why anyone ever bought a magnum when there was such a wide range of slow moving, rapidly expanding bullets available
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variety is the spice of life, i'm sure Roy did alright by coming up with a thing to market and sell
needed? no, we'd all be just fine with a 6.5x55 pushing 160's for anything but that's boring, people like to play and they like variety
i got hooked on the speed and it was fun to go up the ladder a bit, but have come back down and just as happy if not happier, so there's that
suppose if you'd like 2400 fps impact velocity at 600+ yards you're going to need some speed, for mere mortals however, we can still launch reasonable bullets at 2400-2700 fps and get all our hunting needs covered effectively also, sure is nice we have the choices though, i'm a big fan of choices and variety
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01-21-2021, 09:14 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 25,269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homesteader
Oh, well that makes more sense. I change my answer to 308 win or 7-08
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Dedicated grizz hunt?
I will sit back 1 click in the Argo and watch.....might find ya a few days later as we keep calling your cell and find your phone in bear scat
To the OP....after 7 pages can you give us your final decision....ya got some great inputs here
__________________
Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
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01-21-2021, 09:26 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 58thecat
Dedicated grizz hunt?
I will sit back 1 click in the Argo and watch.....might find ya a few days later as we keep calling your cell and find your phone in bear scat
To the OP....after 7 pages can you give us your final decision....ya got some great inputs here
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lol ... I really don't have the final decision, but if I had to choose just one, the 9.3x62 would be it.
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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01-21-2021, 09:32 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Jasper
Posts: 839
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote
variety is the spice of life, i'm sure Roy did alright by coming up with a thing to market and sell
needed? no, we'd all be just fine with a 6.5x55 pushing 160's for anything but that's boring, people like to play and they like variety
i got hooked on the speed and it was fun to go up the ladder a bit, but have come back down and just as happy if not happier, so there's that
suppose if you'd like 2400 fps impact velocity at 600+ yards you're going to need some speed, for mere mortals however, we can still launch reasonable bullets at 2400-2700 fps and get all our hunting needs covered effectively also, sure is nice we have the choices though, i'm a big fan of choices and variety
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I agree that variety is fun.
For me, at the ranges in which I hunt (sub 500yd) a magnum does not get me any practical advantage over a the 30.06 or 6.5cm that I use.
The advent of range finding optics has revolutionized the market, such that maximum point blank range concept (for me) has become obsolete.
I can see how prior to the use of range finders a high velocity chambering would have been advantageous in terms of MPBR.
I still have my grandpas Mark V .270, it just doesn’t get exercised much.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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01-21-2021, 10:46 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,987
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 58thecat
Dedicated grizz hunt?
I will sit back 1 click in the Argo and watch.....might find ya a few days later as we keep calling your cell and find your phone in bear scat
To the OP....after 7 pages can you give us your final decision....ya got some great inputs here
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200 gr partition at 2400+ fps and an accurate rifle. I would have no issue " hunting " grizz....unfortunately This is a moot discussion as it's illegal...
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01-21-2021, 12:57 PM
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: West of Edmonton
Posts: 2,313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 58thecat
Dedicated grizz hunt?
I will sit back 1 click in the Argo and watch.....might find ya a few days later as we keep calling your cell and find your phone in bear scat
To the OP....after 7 pages can you give us your final decision....ya got some great inputs here
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With all the money I saved shooting an efficient cartridge I have a waterproof cellphone with a great battery, so yes that should work
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01-21-2021, 01:09 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 58thecat
Dedicated grizz hunt?
I will sit back 1 click in the Argo and watch.....might find ya a few days later as we keep calling your cell and find your phone in bear scat
To the OP....after 7 pages can you give us your final decision....ya got some great inputs here
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If Grizzlies scare you, pack something else.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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01-21-2021, 02:46 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 25,269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
If Grizzlies scare you, pack something else.
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just following the OP's request is all.....nothing scares me but some things I just really really really respect...when they walk out of thick cover to claim their fishing hole well have at'er….I'll move downstream or upstream.
__________________
Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
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01-21-2021, 02:49 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 25,269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
lol ... I really don't have the final decision, but if I had to choose just one, the 9.3x62 would be it.
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Otto would be proud of your choice...well done sir!
__________________
Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
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01-21-2021, 02:58 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,175
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With all the hype out there now on this new caliber, why not try the Winchester/Browning new 6.8 WESTERN.
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01-21-2021, 04:12 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marky_mark
The only Mark you are going to leave on this world is one big headache
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lol, definitely for some
bring up your ballistics nerd game and the headaches will go away
sdrr and err...the next chapter in big game bullet ballistics development
watch, one day, someone here is gonna say...'stinky c' they stole your ideas! and provide a link to the article
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01-21-2021, 04:43 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
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well, how bout a .243 vs 6.5 Grendel penetration test, you wanna see the conclusion just head to the 4:00 minute mark and watch from there
two cup and core, one driven 380 fps faster than the other and with another 10-13 grains of powder too, a 100 gr .243 .242 sd at 2960 fps vs 123 gr 6.5 grendel at 2580 fps with .252 sd
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSTjG2QWAXg
two ways to go to get the .243 to match the Grendel example here...1. slow it down as the construction for that speed just sheds too much sd too quickly...ie; cup and core will really shed sd above 2700 fps launches or, 2. make it tougher like a partition, so it could keep more sd as it goes, then it will get deeper
we compensate for too much velocity or weak sd with heavier or tougher bullets...start to see the relationships of efficiency on game...there's a magic window of velocity/contruction/sd for most of the game we chase
the grendel having higher sd and 380 fps less velocity allowed it to go deeper as it held together better keeping it's sd...more velocity would have shortened it's potential just like the .243's was...
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01-21-2021, 04:46 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Fishing Maniac
With all the hype out there now on this new caliber, why not try the Winchester/Browning new 6.8 WESTERN.
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where is this hype? i've only seen a couple obscure mentions of it here so far, mind you my world is pretty small
this will be a one year flash in the pan...just my prediction, the wssm's will have a better standing in time
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01-21-2021, 05:13 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote
where is this hype? i've only seen a couple obscure mentions of it here so far, mind you my world is pretty small
this will be a one year flash in the pan...just my prediction, the wssm's will have a better standing in time
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I'm sure there will be someone on the forum who will buy it and then soon enough they will come on here spamming every thread telling us how much they love it.
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01-21-2021, 05:17 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote
well, how bout a .243 vs 6.5 Grendel penetration test, you wanna see the conclusion just head to the 4:00 minute mark and watch from there
two cup and core, one driven 380 fps faster than the other and with another 10-13 grains of powder too, a 100 gr .243 .242 sd at 2960 fps vs 123 gr 6.5 grendel at 2580 fps with .252 sd
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSTjG2QWAXg
two ways to go to get the .243 to match the Grendel example here...1. slow it down as the construction for that speed just sheds too much sd too quickly...ie; cup and core will really shed sd above 2700 fps launches or, 2. make it tougher like a partition, so it could keep more sd as it goes, then it will get deeper
we compensate for too much velocity or weak sd with heavier or tougher bullets...start to see the relationships of efficiency on game...there's a magic window of velocity/contruction/sd for most of the game we chase
the grendel having higher sd and 380 fps less velocity allowed it to go deeper as it held together better keeping it's sd...more velocity would have shortened it's potential just like the .243's was...
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You "new Idea" was actually invented over 100 years ago by a guy named Wm Brenneke, ( TUG bullets) N. America is so far behind we think, and act, like we are first.
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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01-21-2021, 07:10 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 25,269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Fishing Maniac
With all the hype out there now on this new caliber, why not try the Winchester/Browning new 6.8 WESTERN.
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Interesting cartridge for sure.
__________________
Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
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