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02-17-2019, 02:32 PM
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Anywhere hear what harvest was for 2018? From a couple outfits I talked they said it was an all time low.
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02-17-2019, 02:47 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silver lab
X2. I will add if someone wants 10 barley legal rams that is up to them. Its obvious the guys who think there should be some sort of restrictions on how many rams someone else can shoot are just jealous. Get a life, my hat is off to anyone with more then one ram weather it is just legal or a booner.
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Not picking on you, but what is the difference between barely legal and completely legal? Perspective? LOL I always grin when someone uses that term. once again I'm just quoting you to use the term not trying to pick on you.
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02-17-2019, 06:52 PM
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Location: Calgary
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Limit the maximum number of sheep killed per hunter to 2 or 3 in a lifetime. This is the case in many states. Shorten the season towards the end and more than anything educate hunters how to distinguish between young and older rams. Many of the F&W guys who are actually in charge of measuring rams for age are not experienced and trained enough to do it right. I have seen many erroneous rams scored wrongly. Pay for seasoned wildlife sheep biologists to educate them on aging.
Full curl rule; That's a tough one but as my good friend and mentor said;
Yes, many broomed old rams never hit full curl but then that is your biological reserve.
Predator control is also in dire need of a serious boost.
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02-17-2019, 07:39 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Red Deer, Ab
Posts: 630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper
Anywhere hear what harvest was for 2018? From a couple outfits I talked they said it was an all time low.
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It was that pretty much the same as last year.
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02-17-2019, 07:43 PM
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Gotta love a good re-run....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chukar Hunter
Limit the maximum number of sheep killed per hunter to 2 or 3 in a lifetime. This is the case in many states. Shorten the season towards the end and more than anything educate hunters how to distinguish between young and older rams. Many of the F&W guys who are actually in charge of measuring rams for age are not experienced and trained enough to do it right. I have seen many erroneous rams scored wrongly. Pay for seasoned wildlife sheep biologists to educate them on aging.
Full curl rule; That's a tough one but as my good friend and mentor said;
Yes, many broomed old rams never hit full curl but then that is your biological reserve.
Predator control is also in dire need of a serious boost.
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There must be fifty threads from the last ten years discussing this, which will include the hard fought for data from F&W.
The numbers of hunters that kill more than one ram is small.
It's just not worth worrying about unless jealousy is the reason.
Besides, once a hunter knows how to kill rams, they typically share the skill with family and friends to get their first sheep. Lots of guys with a ram or two holding out for their dream while still helping to kill sheep.
Full curl does not increase age of harvest, as the Alberta harvest stats show.
If there is a concern for selective hunting causing genetic shifts, the full curl rule would exacerbate the potential for such harm.
Full curl regs in 400 have reduce harvest by 90%, with rams Younger than the provincial average.
Is this the desired result?
Nothing wrong with more predator control, in conjunction with every sheep hunter taking up smoking and filling those ewe tags.
If we want more old rams on the hill, then don't shoot old rams.
__________________
Alberta Fish and Wildlife Outdoor Recreation Policy -
"to identify very rare, scarce or special forms of fish and wildlife outdoor recreation opportunities and to ensure that access to these opportunities continues to be available to all Albertans."
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02-17-2019, 07:58 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Red Deer, Ab
Posts: 630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chukar Hunter
Limit the maximum number of sheep killed per hunter to 2 or 3 in a lifetime. This is the case in many states. Shorten the season towards the end and more than anything educate hunters how to distinguish between young and older rams. Many of the F&W guys who are actually in charge of measuring rams for age are not experienced and trained enough to do it right. I have seen many erroneous rams scored wrongly. Pay for seasoned wildlife sheep biologists to educate them on aging.
Full curl rule; That's a tough one but as my good friend and mentor said;
Yes, many broomed old rams never hit full curl but then that is your biological reserve.
Predator control is also in dire need of a serious boost.
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Your arbitrary number of 2-3 sheep per lifetime isn't based on any science. While it your opinion thats fine but if we are making any changes to sheep regulations in this province it needs to be based on science.
If the same guys weren't out looking for sheep every year there would be no one left to be pationete about them. It would kill centuries old traditions and ways of life. Not everyone needs to be a sheep hunter and not everyone needs to kill one. this life of "fairness" we live in starts to get in the way of actual management.
If we are looking at making any changes in sheep management it needs to be done through proven science and a comprehensive program that weights heavily on habitat enhancement, predator and disease management, maybe we even take a hard look in to resident guiding during the general season.
but the last thing we need to be doing is restricting Albertan's hunting opportunities and leaving the rest to "balance its self" as if we have fixed or accomplished anything.
if you look back from the 70s the biggest thing that has changes is forest encroachment bringing with it smaller grazing areas and better opportunities for predators to get in closer. Some of these licks and water holes that have been vital to our sheep are now completely surrounded by forest and an ambush zone for he sheep and predator to meet.
The age thing has been beat to death. Biologists have already determined that by the time the vast majority of rams make 4/5 cure they are a "mature" ram being on avg 6 (on the low end) and 8 years old. The mortality rate of a ram greatly increases after 6 years old. I feel like some are trying to redefine what a mature ram actually is. Not all rams will see 8 if left alone let alone 10 plus
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02-17-2019, 08:32 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walking buffalo
Full curl does not increase age of harvest, as the Alberta harvest stats show.
If there is a concern for selective hunting causing genetic shifts, the full curl rule would exacerbate the potential for such harm.
Full curl regs in 400 have reduce harvest by 90%, with rams Younger than the provincial average.
Is this the desired result?
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Would love to see the proof of this.
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02-17-2019, 08:49 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walking buffalo
Gotta love a good re-run....
There must be fifty threads from the last ten years discussing this, which will include the hard fought for data from F&W.
The numbers of hunters that kill more than one ram is small.
It's just not worth worrying about unless jealousy is the reason.
Besides, once a hunter knows how to kill rams, they typically share the skill with family and friends to get their first sheep. Lots of guys with a ram or two holding out for their dream while still helping to kill sheep.
Full curl does not increase age of harvest, as the Alberta harvest stats show.
If there is a concern for selective hunting causing genetic shifts, the full curl rule would exacerbate the potential for such harm.
Full curl regs in 400 have reduce harvest by 90%, with rams Younger than the provincial average.
Is this the desired result?
Nothing wrong with more predator control, in conjunction with every sheep hunter taking up smoking and filling those ewe tags.
If we want more old rams on the hill, then don't shoot old rams.
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Really. The data I am seeing I think shows 6 legal rams taken in 400 in 2018. Five legal rams taken in 400 in 2017. Is that really a 90 percent reduction in harvest levels? And from a full curl zone non the less. From what baseline are you saying we have a 90 percent reduction in harvest levels? Am I missing something here? Do I have some bad data WB?
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There are some who can live without wild things, and some who cannot. Aldo Leopold
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02-17-2019, 08:55 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walking buffalo
Gotta love a good re-run....
Full curl does not increase age of harvest, as the Alberta harvest stats show.
If there is a concern for selective hunting causing genetic shifts, the full curl rule would exacerbate the potential for such harm.
Full curl regs in 400 have reduce harvest by 90%, with rams Younger than the provincial average.
Is this the desired result?
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And an average age of 9 ish for 2018 and 8.5 for 2017?
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There are some who can live without wild things, and some who cannot. Aldo Leopold
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02-17-2019, 09:58 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdub
And an average age of 9 ish for 2018 and 8.5 for 2017?
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I think he’s talking since the full curl rule was put into effect. And there were 4 full curl rams shot in 400 and 2 short rams shot in 2018
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02-17-2019, 10:04 PM
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And 2015, 7 rams. 2016, 5 rams. Where are you getting the 90 percent reduction in harvest from?
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There are some who can live without wild things, and some who cannot. Aldo Leopold
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02-17-2019, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RZR
I think he’s talking since the full curl rule was put into effect. And there were 4 full curl rams shot in 400 and 2 short rams shot in 2018
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I take it math isn’t your stong suit either.
What does the short rams have to do with anything. There are short rams shot in other zones as well.
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There are some who can live without wild things, and some who cannot. Aldo Leopold
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02-17-2019, 10:07 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Sep 2013
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Whaaaaat paaart ooof since the full curl rule was implemented!
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02-17-2019, 10:08 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLH
Would love to see the proof of this.
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328 is a perfect example of how moving to a full curl does not work. The fact is many rams can never live long enough to reach full curl and thats
Not because of hunter harvest but simply based on genetics I know of a ram killed last fall that was almost 37.5 inches long that was about 1.5 inches past 4/5 never in a 100 years would he have made full curl based on his age .there is a healthy population in the province but there is a lot that can be done to help the sheep population. I think we should be able to kill rams based on age as well the same principle would apply to the 4/5ths rule if your not sure it's legal you don't harvest it. That being said there are big sheep all over the eastern slopes and with some hard work and a bit of luck a person can find them moving the system to a draw will not
Increase the age or size of the rams harvested and will ultimately have a negative impact on the overall herd structure. It always seems like people expect to go out and just harvest a ram the truth is you have to go earn it may take some a year an others 10 but there is not more beautiful country to have to explore to find them so people should just enjoy the journey.
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02-17-2019, 10:10 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdub
I take it math isn’t your stong suit either.
What does the short rams have to do with anything. There are short rams shot in other zones as well.
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You should learn to read! You quoted as 6 legal rams shot in wmu 400 in 2018 and I said there was 4 legal rams and 2 short rams and a short ram is not a legal ram the last time I checked.
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02-17-2019, 10:27 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2016
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Hasn't 400 been full curl since like 96'
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Let er buck!
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02-17-2019, 10:31 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdub
And 2015, 7 rams. 2016, 5 rams. Where are you getting the 90 percent reduction in harvest from?
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Go back about 10more years
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Let er buck!
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02-18-2019, 03:31 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RZR
You should learn to read! You quoted as 6 legal rams shot in wmu 400 in 2018 and I said there was 4 legal rams and 2 short rams and a short ram is not a legal ram the last time I checked.
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In 2018, 7 registered rams 6 legal harvest and 1 unknown (found dead?) the most rams ever registered in 400 was in 1980 with 23 one of those was illegal.
90% reduction is not the right answer.
These are my own calculations from the harvest reports so I'm not going to bet the farm on their accuracy but I think they are quite sound:
After full curl rules went into effect in 400 (up to 2014) the average age of harvested rams increased by 1.5 years, the average age did not go down.
in 2014 400 had the 6th highest average age 8.75 with 4 harvested. Ahead of it was 306 that had 1, 9 year old ram killed, 437 with 1 ram killed at age 10, 410b with two at 9.5, 439 with 3 at 9.33 and 408 with 5 rams killed at 9 years average and 3 of those were shot in November or December.
In 2014 those 4 rams harvested ranked it 13th out of 25 for number harvested.
By what metric has the full curl rule been unsuccessful in 400? Again these are my own calculations so, by all means, check them.
Scopithorne you mentioned it didn't work in 328. From the registration report given out a couple years ago up to 2014 there have only been 24 rams registered from 328. That isn't from any given year that is a total from 1974 to 2014. Perhaps there are other issues in 328.
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02-18-2019, 03:36 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CF8889
Go back about 10more years
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After the disease die off and the full curl rule was put in place it was bleak for a couple years with none being harvested for some of those years. But it is consistently harvesting 4-7 full curl rams now and however many native and illegal rams.
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02-18-2019, 03:53 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper
Anywhere hear what harvest was for 2018? From a couple outfits I talked they said it was an all time low.
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looks like 167 registered rams of which 139 were hunter harvest. There may have been some added to this list so take this with a grain of salt
Yes a low year but not the lowest about the same for 2017
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02-18-2019, 05:05 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CF8889
Go back about 10more years
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I am aware. Like SLH said, we had some low harvest numbers after the implementation of full curl. Now the harvest numbers and age have both improved. 400 is about the only bright spot in the province when it comes to sheep management despite the ease of access, high hunter numbers etc. Full curl seems to work here. To bad there is to so much pressure against making positive changes in the rest of the province. We have to stop being so short sighted. Sheep hunting and the health of the sheep herd in this province is going to continue to decline otherwise IMO.
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There are some who can live without wild things, and some who cannot. Aldo Leopold
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02-18-2019, 08:29 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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Aaaa the little piggies
How they snort n grunt
I’m getting tired of shooting rams , one more n I’m hanging up my boots .
You guys should stop gobbling n snooddling over each other n figure out what it takes to close the deal.
3 night 4 day boot camp $2500
Map with GPS numbers & a X $5000
Rent my gear n I tag along $650 a day
(Your spot) (my spot TBN)
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.....Only here for buy n sell....
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02-18-2019, 08:36 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdub
I am aware. Like SLH said, we had some low harvest numbers after the implementation of full curl. Now the harvest numbers and age have both improved. 400 is about the only bright spot in the province when it comes to sheep management despite the ease of access, high hunter numbers etc. Full curl seems to work here. To bad there is to so much pressure against making positive changes in the rest of the province. We have to stop being so short sighted. Sheep hunting and the health of the sheep herd in this province is going to continue to decline otherwise IMO.
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This not correct, the number of rams is way down and the age hasn’t improved a whole lot and the short rams that are shot are way up as it’s a lot harder to judge a full curl than it is a 4/5 ram. There are rams shot in 400 that are short and passed off as different zone rams when registered. I know of 3 rams that were short and registered as other wmu’s. Arrogance had these hunters caught, and that’s only 3cases how many others are out there that haven’t been caught.
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02-18-2019, 09:46 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Jasper
Posts: 839
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BackPackHunter
I’m getting tired of shooting rams , one more n I’m hanging up my boots .
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That’s really tough man, lol. If the data shows that increased ewe harvest will benefit populations and herd health, I think moving onto ewes would be good for you.
I will gladly give you beta on where to find them, and won’t even charge you
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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02-18-2019, 09:55 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,936
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BackPackHunter
Aaaa the little piggies
How they snort n grunt
I’m getting tired of shooting rams , one more n I’m hanging up my boots .
You guys should stop gobbling n snooddling over each other n figure out what it takes to close the deal.
3 night 4 day boot camp $2500
Map with GPS numbers & a X $5000
Rent my gear n I tag along $650 a day
(Your spot) (my spot TBN)
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Let’s see all those big rams you’ve shot.
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02-18-2019, 12:30 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RZR
This not correct, the number of rams is way down and the age hasn’t improved a whole lot and the short rams that are shot are way up as it’s a lot harder to judge a full curl than it is a 4/5 ram. There are rams shot in 400 that are short and passed off as different zone rams when registered. I know of 3 rams that were short and registered as other wmu’s. Arrogance had these hunters caught, and that’s only 3cases how many others are out there that haven’t been caught.
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The data is available from the registration documents that is were I got my numbers from. Full curl has increased the age of rams harvested in 400 if you have different numbers I'd be happy to correct what i've put up here.
Average Age WMU 400 All 1974-2014 6.33690
Average Age WMU 400 1974 to 1995 6.03642
Average Age WMU 400 1995-2014 7.59722
Average age for 2017 7.33
Average age for 2018 8.16
The harvest of rams is less than up to say 1985 but it certainly is not 90% less, like I posted 1980 there were 23 rams harvested in 400. In 1985 there were 12. 2017 6 with one native harvest, 2018 7 with one Unknown.
If there are other rams being shot that are registered in other zones that is a problem and definitely something you should report but the illegally harvested rams are also reported in the registration data and I don't see what you are suggesting based on the registration. That said the zone should be given even more credit if it can support legal full curl at the rate it is and supplementing other zones with 4/5 rams.
Last edited by SLH; 02-18-2019 at 12:35 PM.
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02-18-2019, 01:11 PM
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Edit
__________________
Let er buck!
Last edited by CF8889; 02-18-2019 at 01:21 PM.
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02-18-2019, 01:14 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLH
The data is available from the registration documents that is were I got my numbers from. Full curl has increased the age of rams harvested in 400 if you have different numbers I'd be happy to correct what i've put up here.
Average Age WMU 400 All 1974-2014 6.33690
Average Age WMU 400 1974 to 1995 6.03642
Average Age WMU 400 1995-2014 7.59722
Average age for 2017 7.33
Average age for 2018 8.16
The harvest of rams is less than up to say 1985 but it certainly is not 90% less, like I posted 1980 there were 23 rams harvested in 400. In 1985 there were 12. 2017 6 with one native harvest, 2018 7 with one Unknown.
If there are other rams being shot that are registered in other zones that is a problem and definitely something you should report but the illegally harvested rams are also reported in the registration data and I don't see what you are suggesting based on the registration. That said the zone should be given even more credit if it can support legal full curl at the rate it is and supplementing other zones with 4/5 rams.
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The die off in the 80’s really skews the numbers, so you can say what ever you want. The seventh ram that was shot in 2018 was the premier’s tag which was shot in November, so there is another skew in the numbers,and from what I was told when I asked that 2 of the six others were short rams.
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02-18-2019, 01:42 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RZR
The die off in the 80’s really skews the numbers, so you can say what ever you want. The seventh ram that was shot in 2018 was the premier’s tag which was shot in November, so there is another skew in the numbers,and from what I was told when I asked that 2 of the six others were short rams.
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RZR I'm not sure what to say to you; the build up to 1980 skews the numbers as well. Maybe there is a lot of info not in the registration reports, who knows but what everyone is basing their opinions on is in those reports. This is what I've come up with based on my interpretations of the numbers. I definitely could have made some mistakes and I'm more than willing to look at other analysis of the numbers.
You also mentioned a draw tag, don't forget the numbers I put up earlier include comparisons to draw zones like 410, 408 and 438 as well.
Maybe there are a couple in there that look suspicious but they have them listed as legal. Regardless I've used them in the average so the numbers stand even with some suspect rams.
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02-18-2019, 01:52 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 838
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I know I’m getting older, but I don’t remember ever registering rams in the 70’s. I thought it was early 80’s when registration came into effect. Maybe someone with a better memory knows this. I even talked to my dad to see if he remembers having to register his rams and he’s like me. Doesn’t remember registering his rams either. I’m not sure where they were getting their data from. You see how numbers can be skewed.
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