Need help from pointer guys

pikergolf · #1 11-04-2013, 11:40 AM

I have a rescue pointer that hunts very well. My problem is I would like him to break point and flush on command. No matter how much I encourage him he will not break and flush. He points and can press the bird to hold but in some situations it would be better if he flushed the bird and not me. Cover that is high comes to mind, if I went in and flushed I would not get a shot. He absolutely will not break until I walk past him and then it is just a few feet and if the bird is still there he will point again when he is ahead of me. I've Googled it and can't find a solution, most dogs have the opposite problem and will break before they are supposed to. I've never had a pointer before so I'm a little lost, all suggestions welcome.

Hipp55 · #2 11-04-2013, 12:10 PM

Pointer people would love to have your problem. Someone has wworked very hard to train this dog to POINT.
Get a friend to hunt with would be one solution,
What will happen if you get him to flush he will break point on his own when you are not there.

aulrich · #3 11-04-2013, 12:53 PM

I am not there yet, but it's on my todo list after I get him properly steady. Here is an article I have dug up.

http://www.gundogmag.com/2012/09/18/...ng-on-command/

HunterDave · #4 11-04-2013, 12:55 PM

It sounds to me like a good problem to have. You've lucked in with a great rescue dog, he's hunting with/for you as opposed to hunting on his own. I wouldn't try to change anything, he knows what he's doing and you can adjust the way that you hunt to the way that he does.

aulrich · #5 11-04-2013, 01:35 PM

I have seen where a guy has a Lab along at heel, then on command goes in and flushes the bird for the pointer.

That's another option.

Flush on command does seem to be "contentious" in the pointing dog world.

pikergolf · #6 11-04-2013, 01:59 PM

Thanks guys, I have a partner that takes my Springer but I don't want to call the Springer over as there is a competition element there that I don't want to foster, they do better when apart. Didn't know it was a good problem to have, last year he would break with a lot of encouragement, this year if the bird is close he won't budge. I may wait a year to try and work this out as I don't want to make any mistakes, and by going to fast for him I might cause more problems.

Pudelpointer · #7 11-04-2013, 02:25 PM

His job is to point, your job is to flush and kill the bird.

Sometimes it sucks to have to climb up a steep hill or wade a slough to get to your dog on point, but sometimes that is what you have to do.

Sometimes you can wait them out, and the bird will eventually move.

pikergolf · #8 11-04-2013, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pudelpointer

His job is to point, your job is to flush and kill the bird.

Sometimes it sucks to have to climb up a steep hill or wade a slough to get to your dog on point, but sometimes that is what you have to do.

Sometimes you can wait them out, and the bird will eventually move.

I feel like I'm on a steeper learning curve than he is.

wwbirds · #9 11-04-2013, 04:24 PM

I have a number of clients who get there dog to flush with a pointer who often get po'ed with me for suggesting they are creating a problem by doing so. Like has been said many people would love to have your problem. He points and you flush and shoot. Once he breaks points it is truly tough to get him to understand when it is allowed so just don't encourage it would be my best advice.
I literally had to pick up a visla on point yesterday to get her to leave a bird in the pheasant pens she was locked on. Would not have it any other way!

pikergolf · #10 11-04-2013, 05:17 PM

Thanks all.

densa44 · #11 11-04-2013, 05:39 PM

When mine won't move they can see the bird, when the bird is farther away I can reposition the dog to get closer, I have to touch her first.

What kind of dog is this? Someone spent a lot of time training this dog and then it was a rescue?

Winch101 · #12 11-04-2013, 05:46 PM

The Griffon was steady as a rock....but last year poor year not much birding

So this year pointing penned birds, of course they run , a flushing dog

Breaks past him , when he's on point .....that's the last time that happened...

8yrs of training , gone in a heart beat ...we had to have a few heart to heart
Talks him and I .....he's back on track ...but I did a dumb thing there.

I would just be happy if he is steady on point....and you do the flushing ....in the long run
I think this is better.. Like it's been said here ...your the envy of the pointer
Crowd...lol

pikergolf · #13 11-04-2013, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by densa44

When mine won't move they can see the bird, when the bird is farther away I can reposition the dog to get closer, I have to touch her first.

What kind of dog is this? Someone spent a lot of time training this dog and then it was a rescue?

I don't think the dog was trained, there was a thread on this dog a year and a half ago. He was found half starved out by Lethbridge, by the time we got him he was about 6mths old. Not positive what breed he is, but I ran into a DU guy at Bullshead last spring, he was from Colorado and up for the dedication of some property there. He asked about the dog, and when I told him the story and that no one was sure of the breed he told me he was a Cesky Fousek. I asked him how he could be so sure, he told me he bred them and he was 100% certain. I have googled the breed and am convinced that the man is correct. He pointed from the start but was afraid of everything, I've invested a lot of love into him, all I'll say right now is that he's come a long way. I've written a story about his first year and may share that at some point on here, as that is how I met him.

uncle buck · #14 11-04-2013, 06:37 PM

Like has been said this is not a problem. You caught a good break on your first pointing dog. Most dogs need plenty of work and birds to get that steady, now that he is don't screw it up! Learn how to flush the birds he tees up for u. If it is real bad try throwing some rocks in first! Haha I like flushing birds almost as much as shooting them.

aulrich · #15 11-04-2013, 09:46 PM

Wow thats an rare breed in North America to find wandering lost. Could you post a pic of your boy.

pikergolf · #16 11-04-2013, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aulrich

Wow thats an rare breed in North America to find wandering lost. Could you post a pic of your boy.

Rare indeed, only one breeder in Canada that I could find, in Toronto. I think it is a dog from the States, tail was not docked and dew claws were not removed. I'll try and get a fresh picture of him tomorrow.

Winch101 · #17 11-04-2013, 10:56 PM

There's an old guy who hunts the Patricia EID , has 3 Ceskys ,

In the US there are two Griffon assoc. one has bred the Griffon

With the Ceskys , I am not sure they are AKC approved.. Taller dogs

Bigger running from what I understand ..they are a Czech wire hair

I believe ....

densa44 · #18 11-05-2013, 06:25 AM

This fellow lives in Brooks, a tall athletic man. kennels 2 of them in the same box. He is a friend of members of the wild rose navhda club. He is not what I'd call old, but that is relative.

I think that you have rescued a lost dog, and God bless you for that.

This man's dogs, I think he told me came from Europe. He is a Czech, you won't be surprised to hear, he is a very good trainer. Post a pic of the dog that won't break!

pikergolf · #19 11-05-2013, 10:33 AM

Handsome Gus.

I honestly think he was abandoned, he was terrified of gun fire, still doesn't like it, but his love of hunt is stronger than his fear. I had him to the rifle range with me, left him in the vehicle when I returned after setting up he was a shivering mess, so we went home without firing a shot. The only place he seems able to overcome his fear is out hunting.

kstats · #20 11-05-2013, 11:12 AM

Great looking dog... Lucky for both of you to have found each other!!

aulrich · #21 11-05-2013, 11:53 AM

Nice looking dog.

I have day dreamed the odd time about finding a hunting dog puppy in the bush, but honey I had to bring him home

AndersonSkiTeam · #22 11-05-2013, 02:34 PM

I can't remember the exact thread but if you go to www.versatiledogs.com or www.gundogforum.com there are threads on this.

Sounds like you have a great dog. It is a hard issue. Hunting around Southern Alberta it is nice to have a dog that will break sometimes in thick choke cherry bushes or other areas. It definitely can create issues though. If I had a dog that wouldn't break at all I would probably keep the dog that way and not try to change it.

My dog will try to let me do the flushing but if I do release him he will go in. That being said sometimes he likes to flush without me there yet as a result. Not to often but it does happen.

You have a great problem to deal with. A perfectly steady dog is gold.

killerbren · #23 11-05-2013, 03:30 PM

another thing to think about are the porcupines. Once my dog went on point, I walked in front, nothing flushed, released the dog into the bushes and he came back out full of quills, I felt bad. Now I wont release him into thick brush as both dogs have pointed 2 or 3 porcupines since then.

NABTJ · #24 11-10-2015, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwbirds

I have a number of clients who get there dog to flush with a pointer who often get po'ed with me for suggesting they are creating a problem by doing so. Like has been said many people would love to have your problem. He points and you flush and shoot. Once he breaks points it is truly tough to get him to understand when it is allowed so just don't encourage it would be my best advice.
I literally had to pick up a visla on point yesterday to get her to leave a bird in the pheasant pens she was locked on. Would not have it any other way!

My Vizsla comes from a long line of great hunting dogs and his mother is exactly like this. The owner will see her out in the yard on point and will have to leave the house to get her to break. LOL

catnthehat · #25 11-10-2015, 06:36 PM

Louie holds point, will break and follow a runner but stop as soon as the bird stops , will flush on command but only if he can see the bird most times , and will point but NOT bust a porcupine no way!
Something like 8 of them now and a treed one as well.
Danged dawg is worth his weight in quills!
Once he took a few when Justice got into one in a wood pile and it slapped him on the way by but no biggy and not his fault!

I can't recall a time in the years my son has owned him that he busted a bird.
Cat

kennedy · #26 11-10-2015, 08:32 PM

I cant believe im hearing that someone wants a pointer to break point. In that case why would you want a pointer?

catnthehat · #27 11-10-2015, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennedy

I cant believe im hearing that someone wants a pointer to break point. In that case why would you want a pointer?

Dog locates bird and points it .
Instead of smashing through brush or thorns dog goes in on command.
Hunter is not put out of position or gets zippered when bird flushes too close .
Not all pointer guys trial there dogs and many prefer their dogs to work this way .
I've also owned pointing labs which a lot of people - both lab guys and pointer Guys don 't approve of.
He don't break unless he is told too and it works very well the way we kill birds - and we have no problem killing lots and having fun with him!
Cat

M.C. Gusto · #28 11-11-2015, 10:49 AM

personally i think your crazy for wanting your dog to do that and would advise against it. thats a nice looking dog, not sure its a CF, theyre just so rare although he sure does look like one.
my brother czec import Pupelpointer was the same way, never wanted bust a bird and so easy to train.
great dog, dont change a thing.

h&t · #29 11-11-2015, 12:20 PM

piker, congrats on saving and taking care of the lost dog.
Don't listen to all the naysayers, what you want to do (flush on command) is totally legitimate, most of Europe hunts this way and some smart people in NA too. A gundog book author even admitted to me doing it, but asked to remain anonymous

So you're in good company.
Some of the north american dogs are bred to be 'super sticky' on point and it was my first thought, but if it's a Foucek (or a Griffon) the problem is something else.
You were already pointed to GDF and V-dog sites. There were some discussions on that in the past.
I'd recommend you have someone take a short video of what your dog does when on point and you encourage it to move forward. If you post it, you'd get better advice. In the absence of that. I'd say - teach the dog a command to take the food. Sit the dog, place food bowl, make the dog wait, then say - Banana! ( or Take it!). After a while, when the dog gets it, try it on point - get close to the dog and encourage it to move forward.
Does it fetch? You can do some training around retrieves.
I read once, but never tried it - hold your hat in front of the dogs nose to break the scent, then it may be willing to move forward.
Good luck and don't take him to the range.
another forum is http://www.gundogtrainingforum.co.uk...wforum.php?f=6