Major Check Stop on the Trans-Canada

Rook · #1 10-20-2007, 09:41 PM

Just went though a major check stop on the Trans-Canada highway beside Chestermer. Probably around 5 RCMP and perhaps 10-15 Wildlife vehicles. Coming from the east I'm not sure exactly what they were looking for. Perhaps and extra goose or duck. Seemed like an excessive show of force and a waste of taxpayers money.

But the reason for this thread is to determine just what powers a wildlife officer has at a checkstop and what legal rights do I have.

First question.
1 WO - Evening guys have you been hunting?
Me - I don't understand your question Officer.

My reason for this reply, he didn't ask when I'd been hunting. By answering yes I am leaving myself wide open to produce licenses of all kinds for animals I might have been hunting yesterday or whenever. Secondly by answering yes do I give the WO just cause to then search my vehicle?

2. WO - Would you please open your vehicle.
Me - Officer do you have a search warrant?

Reason for this answer is if I voluntarily open my vehicle then I have just given the WO permission to search my vehicle and he can go on a fishing trip.

If I answer yes I have been hunting and produce a license then the WO probably has just cause to search the vehicle unless I say no I did not shoot anything. If he still wants the vehicle opened can I then say, 'there are the keys open it yousrself'. If he opens it himself then he can only search for what? Is there no just cause because I said I did not bag any game? Does he need a search warrant?

The above is not how I acted at this check stop but it did make me wonder how the above scenarios legally can be played out. Any legal beagles amongst the members who can answer some of these questions?

mulecrazy · #2 10-20-2007, 09:59 PM

Interesting topic... A couple years ago when I was working in the states I was talking to some locals about this. They told me that it is common down there for a checkstop to have 1 fish cop there. The reasoning they gave me was that a regular officer needs to have just cause or a warrant to search a vehicle where a f&W officer does not. Seems kind of dishonest and a waste of taxpayers money myself. Two falls ago myself and bro in-law were on our way back to calgary after taking our non-trophy antelope. It was in the dark and we had our camo on still. They were setting up a checkstop near chestermear with a lot of F&W vehicles. They weren't stopping anyone yet and the one CO took a pretty good look at us as we slowly drove by. I just gave a friendly wave and we kept on trucking.

el sparko · #3 10-20-2007, 10:00 PM

hey rook; i hope you realize that someone has to officiate what us hunters do and i'm sure you'd agree that if they didn't there would be chaos.
how and where the officers choose to set up a check stop is not our concern. when they abuse their power or blatently use undue force,
that is worth a complaint. as far as our attitide is concerned, i find if i treat them with respect they tend to treat me with the same.
if we follow the rules there is no reason to fear.

rugatika · #4 10-20-2007, 10:02 PM

Good topic Rook. I think more of us should learn and exercise our rights as Canadians. Thanks for posting the question and hopefully someone can provide some insight as to our rights at checkstops etc.

Rook · #5 10-20-2007, 10:14 PM

El Sparko,

Sorry to disagree with you but it is a proven fact that many innocent people get raked over the coals because they thought they were innocent and said way too much to the RCMP or WO. They ended up opening the door for things they never realized they had. And that info comes from a crown prosecutor.

And yes the WO can set up were ever they wish. It just seemed with that many RCMP and WO at a time when most people coming from the east have been bird hunting it is over kill. Do you know what the fine is for having an extra duck or goose? Certainly doesn't warrant the show of force I saw.

Cordur · #6 10-21-2007, 05:32 AM

They stopped me last year on my way back from Lake Newell in late September. I had tagged an 8½lb walleye and was towing my boat back in the evening. RCMP asked me if I had been drinking. I said "No." RCMP said "Ok, now a F&W officer will ask you a few questions, thank you."

The F&W guy asked if we had been fishing (had taken a friend out with me for the day). Pretty obvious I had been from the boat I was towing but I could have just been towing my boat around. Anyways I answered "Yes." So he told me he would need to check any coolers we were bringing back and I opened the one with the walleye in it for him and he checked the tag. Now if you haven't tagged a walleye yet it's not the easiest thing to do when you hands are wet and covered in fish slime. Anyways I had followed the picture and tagged my walleye. The officer told me that I had tagged it improperly because the sticker was not covering enough of the wire clip. He gave it a tug and the sticker came off. I explained that the wire would not go any further than it was since it was too short. The tag was covering at least an inch and a half of the wire. He told me that since it was not tagged properly I could be fined, and that since it was tagged in a way that it could be removed and used again I might have done so. My friend spoke up at this point and said "You're the one who took the tag off! I watched you do it." I didn't think this was helping much. Anyways I explained again how I couldn't see that I had tagged it wrong and didn't think anything would stick when you are putting it in a cooler full of ice and water and fish slime.

Anyways he pulled out a pocket knife and proceeded to cut the gills back to the jaw bone and re-tag the walleye while the RCMP officer came over for a closer look. RCMP "That's a nice sized fish. What is it, a trout?" Had to explain no it was a walleye. After the F&W guy was done he asked to see my license for the tag. Showed him and got another warning about properly tagging my fish next time and then were told to be on our way.

Now I was very polite with this fellow and was quite happy really to be bringing this nice sized walleye home for supper. Would have shown it to anyone that asked as most proud fishermen would, but this was annoying and to some would have been down right intimidating. Still at least they were making the effort to check a few vehicles. I think though that since it was so late in the year (last day of the season for walleye) they might have been checking for hunters. Heard enough shots being fired while out fishing.

Still my advice is be polite, don't say anything more than need be and deal with what happens from there. I've run into conservation officers 4 times now and they haven't really been more than a couple of questions and then some friendly chit chat about the goings on in the area.

Dick284 · #7 10-21-2007, 05:58 AM

I cant wait to here the stories this fall when the RCMP start to ride along with the F&W Officers around here.
According to the RCMP member I know here in town it is the only way to teach the rookies the rural areas.
I constantly see the F&W guys through my work, and always take the time to exchange pleasentries with them.
Usually if you see a reapeated presence in an area they have had complaints and are trying to find the trouble makers.

buckshoot · #8 10-21-2007, 06:00 AM

from my law classes in college I seem to recall that it takes very little to justify a search by fish and wildlife, because it is recognised as nearly as big an issue as drug trafficking,
You just have to remember that courtesy goes a long ways because they can use up a lot of your day if they like and no matter how hard we try, there is usually some thing they can ticket us for

gramps73 · #9 10-21-2007, 08:59 AM

I am all for being a nice as a guy can be but there come a time when enough is enough, I have not been checked this year yet but i guess it is coming. What ever you passion is hunting or fishing you still have rights and asking you to serch you car or truck with no reason to thats not right. Yes I would think that it is a very tough job but we all have one. To pull your tag off and then say he could give you a ticket for that, not cool...
For the most part not a big problem with the work that most of them do but it only takes on guy to give them (F&W) a bad name.
out
g

el sparko · #10 10-21-2007, 09:30 AM

hey rook; i am still trying to grasp the reasoning behind your concern about what wo officers and police can and cannot do at a checkstop.
suppose you are a farmer out walking a fenceline and you see a pickup stop on the road and someone rolls down the window ans shoots a mulie in the next field, then the truck speeds away leaving the deer where it fell.
the farmer pulls out his cell phone and calls the tips line and gives a discription of the offence and the vehicle involved.
the officer who gets this info records it and realizes that it could be the joy hunters they have been looking for for the passed week and a half. he then dispatches the call to officers in the field and they hurriedly set up a check stop. along comes rook who happens to be driving a simular pickup and they proceed to question you about your day afield. what do you think they would do if you acted the way you discribed? and how can they stop people from doing crazy things without first nabbing them? all i'm saying is they have a thankless job to do and we as hunters should try and help them remove the idiots that make us all look bad. and if by asking the questions thay ask they manage to get this job done i have no problem answering them. i have nothing to hide and i do not break the law, problem solved.

DoUCWhatIC · #11 10-21-2007, 10:15 AM

Unbelievable Rook! Is it possible that you are one of those "fellows" who wildlife officer's just love to check! I'm sure your experiences with game wardens are tainted by your attitude. Perhaps being elusive and vague might raise their suspicion. Ya' think?

How about being honest with them? Why not try talking to them? You might be surprised how enjoyable and informative the experience is. You might be able to post a thread about something you learned rather than speculate about how to obstruct the officer.

So there was a check stop, so what? We complain that there isn't enough game wardens then complain if they hold us up for a minute or two. Waste of taxpayer's money? They weren't at the doughnut shop! They were doing their jobs!

"An extra duck or goose" Maybe! Good for them! Maybe an "extra" bull trout. Perhaps an overlimit of Pintails. An illegal elk. A suspended hunter coming back from a morning duck shoot. "An extra duck or goose" indeed!

"Powers?" If a wildlife officer has grounds to believe that a person has engaged in an activity for which a licence or permit is required he may request those documents. So, if a game warden asks me if I've been hunting and I respond honestly like a decent human I may have to take a minute to provide my hunting licence. I think I can handle that! If a wildlife officer has reason to believe that there is wildlife or fish within a vehicle he can demand that it be produced for inspection and compliance with the regulations. Big deal! I'm willing to comply as I believe in resource protection. If a wildlife officer has reasonable and probable grounds to believe that there is, in a vehicle, anything that may afford evidence of a violation he may seize the vehicle and obtain a search warrant. The exception is exigent circumstances! Exigent circumstances are those circumstances in which the delay necessary in obtaining the warrant would result in the loss or destruction of evidence. The only other option is a consented search where the person agrees to the search. Consent can be withdrawn at any time!

"Fishcops", at least in Alberta, have no more authority to search that any other law enforcement personel. Search provisions are found in the Criminal Code of Canada and in Supreme Court Case Law. Provincial legislation cannot supercede federal law.

About the walleye tagging incident, it seems you got an education, not a ticket! The officer obviously exercised his discretion and demonstrated how easily your tag could be removed and replaced onto another walleye by an unscrupuluous person. He obviously didn't believe that was your intention or he would have charged you! So in return for his generosity you are "annoyed"! Well, I guess you can't please them all!

One more thin Rook! You could lie at the next check stop: tell them you weren't hunting or fishing, tell them you have no fish or wildlife in your vehicle. Following that you could post a thread about how some overzeleous (sp?) wildlife officer charged you for providing false information to a wildlife officer. Good luck with that!

Redfrog · #12 10-21-2007, 10:21 AM

First of all let's get rid of this "thankless" job mentality. I know a lot of people who are glad the officers are in the field looking after the resource.

The ones that aren't thankful are the ones who get nailed violating the wildlife regs. The other ones who aren't thankful are the ones who happen to meet up with the gamewardens who are heavy handed, ude and full of themselves. Thankfully these are very few and far between.

They have more "right" to search and sieze than a regular LEO, but that does not give them carte blanche to harass or abuse their authority. Over the uears I have met both kinds. When I meet the first kind, I will do anything I can to help make his work easier, but when I meet the second I will make a very concerted effort to make sure that he is held accountable for his actions. I won't walk away and do nothing.

On a hunt this fall, we had just got camp set up. It was late in the afternnon and we were in the wall tent having coffee. A gov't pickup pulled in and a guy in uniform came up to the tent. He asked how the hunting was. I told him we were jst set up and hadn't been out yet. I offered him a coffee. He came in sat down and for the next 40 minutes or so we drank coffee and talked about hunting and the game animals in the area. He did not ask for licenses or anything else.

A few days later we got stopped on the gravel on our way back to camp. Different guy. Identified himself. Vest and sidearm. Friendly and professional. Asked if we had been hunting? Successful? checked for licenses and loaded firearms. I asked about the other guy. This GW just gave me a blank stare. After a bit of discussion, I find out the first guy was not F/W but forestry.

That's why he had time for coffee.

A few nights later the GW came into camp again. Asked how we were doing, asked if we had seen anything unusual. I told him yes we had the norning before.

Someone had killed two moose, a bull and a cow about 1/2 mile apart. My partner and I had interrupted them. We didn't see them , or the moose, but something wasn't right. It looked like a steam vent out in the canola field and a vehicle with no one around. I took the vehicle info and gave it to the GW. He recognized it as someone he knew.

So it is a two way street. I cooperate and answer the questions they ask, but I expect to be treated with the same respect.

JohninAB · #13 10-21-2007, 10:39 AM

Redfrog, what are you trying to imply about the forestry guy?

Cordur · #14 10-21-2007, 10:47 AM

DoUCWhatIC: Yes I was annoyed with the way this fellow conducted himself. I'm not against him doing his job. It was the first year of the walleye tags though and to be honest I don't think he was too sure of things at that point either. He wanted to see my receipt for the tag as well as the license. Never asked for a fishing license though. I don't recall seeing anything in the regs saying I needed to carry my receipt with me but I did have it either way. He marked the license as fish caught and dated and signed it. I guess he just wanted to be really certain I didn't go back and tag another fish. The fact that the season closed that day would kind of put a damper on that but what ever.

I've had way more positive experiences than bad ones with F&W. And I've had mixed ones. Lost the prop on my boat last year and got towed back to dock by a couple of helpful officers this year. Tried to explain the proper way to tow a boat (guess us east coasters get to do this more than the average albertan). They didn't agree and I've got some repairs to make to my boat now as the railing is torn off the front and the side had the gel coat taken off in a couple of spots. Still was better than paddling and I'm thankful for the help. Gave them a tip on some idiots who were out getting liquored on the water and had cut my buddies line while we were trolling with their prop when the circled us 40' away in the middle of open water. Idiots. Anyways point is that I wouldn't hold it against the guys as they were helpful and polite. Checked our licenses, again I had a huge walleye tagged in the cooler and they complimented the catch and were on their way. I had tagged it the way I was shown the year before by the grumpy fellow and it was a lesson learned. Still doesn't mean I shouldn't have been annoyed at the check stop the year before.

DoUCWhatIC · #15 10-21-2007, 10:56 AM

They have more "right" to search and sieze than a regular LEO...

I don't understand where this perception comes from? I like that you put quotations around "right". We know its not a "right". Perhaps it is a duty or responsibility based on their oath to uphold the law!

I may be incorrect but it is my opinion that wildlife officers may appear to have more "authority" to search based on firearms checks. If a wildlife officer sees a firearm in plain view in a vehicle he can check that firearm to ensure it is in a safe condition (ie unloaded). The wildlife officer will not allow you to handle the firearm (nor should he) until he determines that it is safe. Often the WO will ask the occupant to exit the vehicle and he will enter the vehicle to inspect it. This is not a search. In fact, there is no provision that allows the officer to enter the vehicle but the courts have determined that this is acceptable (case law).

Forest officers are not authorized to carry sidearms. Perhaps it was a Park Ranger (they wear a badge that says they are Conservation Officers but I refuse to call them that).

DoUCWhatIC · #16 10-21-2007, 11:01 AM

Cordur. Fair enough!

Rook · #17 10-21-2007, 11:17 AM

Guys, this was not intended to be about nice WO/rude WO. I just want to know my rights so I don't inadvertently give them away. I'd advise any of you to think about the question you are being asked and how you answer it.

In this case I had been out bird hunting. Told the officer I didn't get anything. He proceeded to search the vehicle. With every bag he asked again, was there a bird in it. Very annoying. He didn't believe me. It really didn't matter what I said. He seemed to have an agenda and was sticking to it. I was polite and he still turned my vehicle upside down, dumping out the contents of every bag in the back of the truck and leaving me to pick it up. That included a $5000 camera and lens. I was not too pleased. So I want to know my rights.

bearbait · #18 10-21-2007, 11:33 AM

they do a stop in whitecourt every year...this year they were giving out ticket for no locks on guns....i find they are very pushy...

i was in the company truck going out to a location to talk with a consultant when i was stopped...asked if i had any fire arms in the truck i said no...they then seached the truck and found nothing...in the proccess the dumped a box of pens all over the truck and when done hadent picked them up...i asked him to clean up his mess as he was the one who created it...his reply was he did not have time...i told him i also did not have time for this crap but had no choice so he would have to pick them up and mabey the next truck he cheacks he should be more careful...in the end he cleaned up the pens (about 200 of them) i thanked him and went on my way...i also lodged a complaint with his boss as i felt like the guy was trying to intimidate me (which dosent work)...had i refused the search they would have held me up longer and got what they wanted in the end...

so you do have rights but in the end they will get what they want...i find its easyer to co-operate.
rob

DoUCWhatIC · #19 10-21-2007, 11:39 AM

Hey Rook. In the absense of any other facts I would suggest that your rights were violated! The Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects us from unreasonable search and seizure. If you had been charged with an offence you could have argued this in court. As you were not charged obviously that doesn't apply. There is still a process that would hold the officer accountable. Write a formal complaint to the Director of Enforcement - Fish & Wildlife. An internal investigation will ensue. There is process beyond that but start there. All it takes is a few minutes. This is how the "system" is accountable.

I still contend - answer the questions truthfully!

gunner83 · #20 10-21-2007, 11:41 AM

follow the rules you will have nothing to worry about.

el sparko · #21 10-21-2007, 11:46 AM

sorry bud, i misunderstood the question. if you want to know your rights in this situation you are asking the wrong people. you need to contact the gov office that deals with this stuff, the most you'll get from us is a lot of "i thinks". good luck and let me know how you make out, oh and by the way i commend you about being conciencious enough to want to know the rules.. shows you care.

DoUCWhatIC · #22 10-21-2007, 11:49 AM

Hey Bearbait. Did they really issue tickets for no locks on guns? I know this was an issue at the checkstop but I'm not aware of any tickets being issued. I certainly could be wrong though! In any case, if there were tickets issued they won't stand up in court.

No doubt that the firearms issue at the checkstop was handled incorrectly! I expect that a whole bunch of people, including law enforcement personel got an education on that. I hope this type of thing doesn't occur again. AND, I think the uproar created by law-abiding citizens will help!

About the pens. sounds unprofessional on the officer's part.

TheClash · #23 10-21-2007, 06:52 PM

unless you are guilty of something why do you care if they stop you?

i would rather have them stopping people and getting abusers of the system out of the system than not....THAT is what i pay my taxes for...how is it a waste of my tax money to have them doing their job?...

poachers do not belong in this sport. those that cannot abide by the rules ruin it for those of us that see the wisdom in rules and regulations.

#24 10-21-2007, 07:01 PM

Quote:

they do a stop in whitecourt every year...this year they were giving out ticket for no locks on guns....i find they are very pushy...

And what were they charging them with? You don't need a lock on your gun while traveling. I say urban legend or just plain BS.

I also find it funny that people are always complaining that there aren't enough officers in the field and then when there are, people bitch too. Get over it, they are doing their job and I'm glad they are out there.

TheClash · #25 10-21-2007, 07:04 PM

+1 on the urban legend for no locks....

Big Moose · #26 10-21-2007, 08:37 PM

I suggest you guys think again about the no locks thing.

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum...d.php?t=187809

Seems to be quite common with the B.C. RCMP.

LongDraw · #27 10-21-2007, 08:39 PM

With all of this checking going on has anyone been asked for their gun registration certificates, PAL or POL?

Morbius131 · #28 10-21-2007, 08:49 PM

I think it is great that there are fish and game officers out there checking to ensure everything is on the up and up. I have found and reported far too many violations that have gone unpunished. However, I have also heard of and seen the abuse of power police officers (not so much the Fish and Game officers). As long as fish and game officers, police officers and outdoorsmen/women are acting for the right reasons and without neglect of one another I have no problem with these searches.

Morb

TheClash · #29 10-21-2007, 08:54 PM

are regulations in BC different than alberta?

Dick284 · #30 10-22-2007, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Moose

I suggest you guys think again about the no locks thing.

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum...d.php?t=187809

Seems to be quite common with the B.C. RCMP.

The law states quite clearly that all you need to transport a non restricted firearm is have it un loaded. Un less there is some sort of local law which overrides the Federal requirement (Ontario it must be cased before and after dark, or Alberta and Wildlife Corridors) that is all you need.
The thread you linked to was a major kerfuffle by the Dawson Creek RCMP, and they were proved wrong, buy a CFSC instuctor who was the end recipient of the attempetd seizure.
What amazes me in this whole scheme is that at least 90% of the members here have taken and passed their CFSC, and still dont know the law.
As for checking PAL's and Registrations, well it goes like this, F&W Officer has a RCMP ride along, they stop you, you act evasive, and smart mouthed, they get their back up, and wow, now they are doing everything, checking every piece of paper, from your Registrations, of your car and firearms, maybe even holding your vehicle for a mechanical inspection.
Remember you attract more flies with sugar than you do Sheite.