585 HE -- Cases In Production --
585 HE ---Tested Super Strong --
If you've followed our work in the 12ga FH thread you've seen our 585 HE cartridge and its development. We have barrels of cases and more coming. We have put it in all kinds of guns, and tested it with 650gr bullet over 3000 fps as heavy load to test the brass, and also for lighter game like deer and hogs and target fun we found that some of 440gr- 540gr 58cal Minie bullets work great First picture shows it next to 505 Gibbs, it has same overall loaded length as a Gibbs. Holds up to 190gr ball powder under bullets... Next pic is a barrel of cases.. Third pic, representative of types of guns we have it in.Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/585l.jpg. http://www.gunownerstv.com/585delivery.jpg. http://www.gunownerstv.com/585rugerlh.jpg. And We get asked about recoil. Guns are weighted a little, thick pads, can be ported, use moderate loads, they shoot nice...And moderate loads still much faster than 577NE. And can be had without costing a years pay. Most local users(only 1 in 10000 hunters go Africa) can shoot lighter .585 Minie bullets, which load for about 95 cents each, once you have cases. Great for target fun, hogs, deer, etc... Cases last forever. We can load to any power level we need or want. Folks can get 100 cases, dies, barrel to put in something, 750 bucks. Asked about #1, And perfect case for the Ruger #1. The few #1s ever done in 577, they had to relieve metal behind the action shoulders that breach block rests against because of rim. Ours don't have to and the #1s extractors I've seen work better with belted than big rimmed. Ours holds more powder, cases built for extreme pressures.Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/585num1.jpg |
Case doesn't need special made shellholder, number 31 RCBS fits fine.
It is a straight belted case that holds up to 190gr of doublebase powder. Powder need not be like charcoal, IE, really slow powder, as necked needs. So it has effiencies of 37-39%, where necked cases are about 29%. Here is one done in a Savage.. http://www.gunownerstv.com/sav585.jpg The loads tested at high pressures about 65,000 psi, when extracting, the weight of the bolt after opening pulled cases out. We've fired moderate loads in singleshots that we mono-blocked barrels into and the cases fall out after firing. Here are couple a nice singles with 585HE in them. http://www.gunownerstv.com/ped585.jpg http://www.gunownerstv.com/585mt3.jpg Cases are made super strong, in the same factory run as the super high pressure Cheytac cases. The base of our case is same size ahead of belt as Cheytac/Gibbs bases. Done with same cups and draws, just uses a different header, bunter, and sizer. Here is picture of the one we made and the factory one sectioned showing the strong built inside corners. These are not balloon head junk cases. http://www.gunownerstv.com/new585sec.jpg We and CH4D have die sets, Manson makes reamers, and we have some. Reamer specs all set and the chambers made with them, the cases extract at the highest pressures. Here is pic of one we set with 585HE in a Greener GP.Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/585greener.jpg |
WE get asked about whether the 585HE is a DD due to being
over 50 cal, and no it is not, as we applied for and got a sporting cartridge exemption few years ago. First picture is base view of cases new and old. On the left is 4 new ones that come with no headstamp that I stamped, and the 6 new ones in the middle has a 585 stamp. We got a barrel full without stamp and guys can wildcat them and put their own stamp on.. Second is side view with some in # 31 holders.No special holders needed. .Notice how uniform belts are on the new shiny ones. Dark ones are ones I made years ago. Third is one with AP bore rider bullet in with others behind. Maybe make a great long range target cartridge. Got a guy setting up one with long heavy barrel for that. http://www.gunownerstv.com/new585head.jpg http://www.gunownerstv.com/new585hold.jpg http://www.gunownerstv.com/585ap.jpg Here is picture of 585HE with 700gr HP CEB bullet and 750 gr wide meplat CEB bullet..Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/585ceb.jpg |
That's pretty cool
Way to much gun for me, but cool |
Very cool project but I think you need to represent the recoil a little more accurately, unless you are using 15 LB guns. What does the foot pounds of kick work out to in an 11 lb rifle 188. I know what a 460 Weatherby kicks like and with a 500 grain bullet at 2800 fps it produces 115 Ft Lbs. Just on the numbers, even the light loads are going to be up there with the 460. There aren't many people who think a 460 needs to kick more than it already does.
Load One Bullet weight in grains 700 Velocity in fps 2800 Powder charge in grains 150 Weight of firearm in lbs 11 Recoil Impulse in (lbs sec) 11 Velocity of recoiling firearm (fps) 33 Free recoil energy in (ft/lbs) 188 Load Two |
Very cool indeed... i would kill to see a bear shot with that caliber.. must be dynamite... :confused0074:
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I have not done the guns that I shoot full loads with 650-750 gr
as low as 11 lbs. They all are 3 lbs heavier. We have set up some 10-11 lb guns with slow twists just for the lighter 440-480gr .585" Minie bullets.... Loading the heavy bullets at the speed the competitors run, like 24-2500, 11lb gun will do. I can shoot 650gr in my NEF at 2400 and cases fall out, and just have to size the top of the cases and load again, We designed with the idea to load up or down depending on what we need or want to do..Ed. |
In the pictures above you see the older first cases I made from Nyati
cases and other cases that were Nyati clones. These were straight basic, long, untrimed cases, so I could get the longer case we wanted. We get asked about the process of doing it and here is picture sketch showing original case, a case with the start of a belt step, and finally a case after it is swaged and sized. Note the belt diameter ends up the same as the base diameter of the original brass. These cases we made years ago was how we got the 585HE started and tested and some guns done. This process can only work with original cases that have a thick corner radius to leave plenty of thickness ahead of the belt. In doing this process with different wildcats we have found cases that wouldn't work. http://www.gunownerstv.com/belting.jpg Now these cases have a diameter that works with regular bolt guns, without extreme machining on the bolt, as opposed to 577NE and Trex. Here is picture of a case held in a Ruger bolt, for example.. http://www.gunownerstv.com/rugerbolt.jpg And our case is large enough capacity to get the power, without being an oversize, soft case. Thicksided cases relative to size of the case are much harder to harden the heads and the lower body back up to proper strength. because of the extreme annealling needed, in the drawing and heading operations in the manufacturing process. Our cases are made with same cups and draws as the ultra high pressure Cheytac cases, and our real high pressure tests show they perform with no extraction problems. http://www.gunownerstv.com/sectof585.jpg Here is picture of a O/U I had top barrel sleeved with smooth tube, and use the 585HE in it with lightweight, hollowbase Minie bullets. Shoots about as accurate as foster slugs in a 12ga. Bottom barrel is 3.5" 12ga smooth. http://www.gunownerstv.com/585ou.jpg |
Some more info- For guys in other countries you can get cases
from Bertram in Australia. I can send die sets. There is a guy in AUS that has a reamer I sent him. We have experimented with black powder type of loads and the Minie bullets, The Minies we use are the ones measuring .585". Also for reduced loads with lesser amounts of powder we found that 24ga wads work perfect in the case, like in this picture. http://www.gunownerstv.com/585wads24.jpg WE did couple guns in smooth barrel to test hollowbase Minies. Found that they work for shot in our case. Holds 3/4 oz of shot. Put a 24ga card on top and glue it in. http://www.gunownerstv.com/585wadshot.jpg We even got one in good ole NEF, with a 585 barrel monoblocked into it and gun weighted, with thick pad. Guy in TX got one also and there is video on ytube--Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/nef585.jpg www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc |
We have a guy who is working toward getting the 585HE cases into
Canada, for guys there to be able to get them from him.. Our case works for black powder type of loads using .585" Minie Bullets also. Here is picture sectioned case with 4 Pyrodex 54 cal pellets stacked behind a 440 gr Minie Bullet.Goes over 2500. Can be loaded with 3 pellets and 24ga cushion wad. http://www.gunownerstv.com/585black.jpg Here is an innovation in a 585HE Falling Block we did. It's in a one piece thumbhole rifle stock. Nice to handle and shoots heavy loads a comfortable as a weighted bolt action gun. FBW brand. http://www.gunownerstv.com/fbw1pc.jpg Here is a bunch of barrels we have, the wrapped ones are slow twist just for guys doing 585HE guns to use Minie bullets for deer, hogs, target, and plain ole fun Using black or smokeless. http://www.gunownerstv.com/hebbl.jpg Here is picture of one being done by a guy on a big Enfield with a nice figured Walnut stock. It is weighted and has a thick pad. Being done African style with thick barrel and integral front sight. You can see a bunch cases in background shelf.--Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/enaf.jpg |
I would love to give that big boy a go.
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Hooray the first batch 585 barrels from McGowen has got here, more
will be built.They are the regular 1 to 20 twist barrels, and we have 14 that are profiled and polished, and 3 others that are straight blanks, 1 to 20 twist. And 6 slow twist barrel blanks for guys doing mainly Minie bullet guns, and bunch smoothbore blanks...Pics soon. Here are couple more pictures of the gun guy is doing with nice stock. http://www.gunownerstv.com/enaf2.jpg http://www.gunownerstv.com/enaf3.jpg Here is picture, 585 FBW falling block with Hogue Knoxx Compstock. Helps reduce recoil in this lighter gun. Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/fbwknoxx.jpg |
Here is picture of the barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
We got most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks. Others we have are the slow twist and smooth...In back some of the cases and die sets. http://www.gunownerstv.com/allhebbl.jpg Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated with the easy to grip, nice pistol grip..Have Mcgowen 26 inch barrels, 1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper to .980 inch at the muzzle. http://www.gunownerstv.com/enhobbk.jpg Here is a visual comparison of why I really like Enfields and Rugers for big bore work. An Enfield on the left.... Lugs built much stronger, simpler to put barrels in actions, without the wall in the middle of front reciever. Easier to shape breaches to feed big cases, so they don't hang up. Left lug longer and forward, simpler to do bolt faces to hold bigger cases...Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/allbolts.jpg |
Here is picture of 585HE in a Montana Rifle Co. PH action.
The double stack mag for the 505 Gibbs they make works ok. The Enfield in the Hogue stock above is gone. http://www.gunownerstv.com/ph585m.jpg We also had guy show us how the case can work for a high energy subsonic cartridge. High energy for subsonic 1600 gr at 1050 fps. The 585HE Whisper Anyone with some way overbore 14.9 mm necked cases on huge actions, can make case inserts for using our case to fire subsonic And fire 650gr or 750 gr at high speeds. Can't get 14.9 Russian cases use ours in same gun with inserts. http://www.gunownerstv.com/585whisper.jpg Break action I like we did on a CBC by mono-blocking in a 585 barrel set up especially for Minie bullets of 440 to 540 gr. http://www.gunownerstv.com/cbc585.jpg |
You can see from above posts I like Enfields and here is picture
of how we set up action for long case and a singlestack magazine. We open bottom of action for length and use a lip type magazine insert to feed cases single stack. And lips are springy so we can load from the top. http://www.gunownerstv.com/585enmag.jpg Here is the second gun I did years ago in the 585HE, an old style Ruger 77. And at that time I used the cases I made myself and they work great in the gun, high pressure loads, and extracted easy. http://www.gunownerstv.com/585ruger.jpg Here is some math to show why I really like really big bores. There is term called Average Barrel Pressure, which is the average of all the pressures in a barrel, from the start where you have highest, called peak pressure. to the lowest at the muzzle when bullet exits. For high powered rifles average barrel pressure run 15-18000 psi. There is a formula that can be used to get Average barrel pressure fairly close if you know the muzzle energy. We multiply ME times 12 and divide by barrel cross section x length. Example a 458Win usually loaded to 5000 ft lbs, say in a 24" bbl. ABP = ( 5000 ft lbs x 12) divided by (.17 sg in x 24") = 15,000 psi Now you see there isn't a lot of room for big gains, as it would take peak pressures damaging to brass and gun, to get say 50% increase. Now example of 585HE in the 26" bbl we like, say a 7,000 ft lb load, a real moderate load in this case. APB = (7000 ft lb x 12) divided by (.27 sg in x 26") = 12000 psi The bigger bore allows for a much larger potential, a 50% gain is easy to do.Ed |
Here is a few of the variety of bullets we found or know about
to use in 585HE, about a third of them, from 440gr, to 750gr, to 1200gr, to 1600gr. http://www.gunownerstv.com/585barnes.jpg Here is picture of what 200gr powder, in a case that had the powder settled, looks like. http://www.gunownerstv.com/585fill.jpg We now have more 585 new straight blanks giving a total of 9 basic blanks, with long ones for guys setting up target guns. And a bunch more of the profiled barrels are being made now to go with new ones we got left. One went on this BBK pictured, 3 on Enfields, one on FBW, one a Ruger. Guys have used 5 of the new slow twist barrels. Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/hoguebbk1.jpg |
There is a guy and his smith in AUS that has a reamer for the 585HE.
And maybe another firm there that can get a bunch reasonably priced barrels imported in from the US. Our Mcgowen barrels are high quality, hand lapped, and only half of what getting them in from other places cost. Here is part of stuff that the guys have to work with.. http://www.gunownerstv.com/585die.jpg Here is picture of the Mossy 390 action, after I'd set up for the 585HE. Just to see how good the action is, and I have since set barrel back and made it into a 24ga FH. Just makes an easy to work with test gun. Being both use same size bore, and in 24ga with 3" chamber I can use 577 brass for 24ga cases, using same Minie and jacketed as 585HE. 58CAL IN ALL FORMS is where it is at, so to speak......Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/585mossy.jpg PS-We have longer barrels now for target work including real heavy ones of 1 5/8 inches, that some guys are working on getting bigger actions set up to use them in. . |
Here is a picture of the first 585HE to be done and firing,
in Australia, owned by the poster, tankhunter on AR forums. Fellows there can get cases from Bertram. I can send dies and reamers.And can get dies from CH4D. There soon will be 3 reamers there. And now a company starting to make 585 barrels there. I have about 17 here, so no waiting here. Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland... allanswan at uplink.net.au. http://www.gunownerstv.com/tankhunter.jpg WE have cases with plain heads if guys need some for wlldcatting, necking down, and they can put on their own headstamp.Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/585plain.jpg |
We've put some of the 585HE bolt guns in composite and Hogue
stocks, and they are rugged for extreme weather. And they don't break under heavy loads. Prices are nice and they have aluminum pillars and/or aluminum bedding blocks. And with their hollow butts very easy to add weight to take up recoil. If lead and epoxy added to a complete fill of the hollow, too much weight, so I found a nice cheap substitute. We now using rubber coated mouse balls that we have bunch of. They are steel with rubber coating, and the right weight. They add just the right weight and and wedge in good. And won't rattle with coating, and we hold them in tight with a piece of dense foam under butt pad. http://www.gunownerstv.com/hoguebbk.jpg We get asked about how much speed potential we have. And we start by mentioning cases can hold 190-200 gr of ball powder with the bullets loaded out longer. And have tested those heavy powder loads with 650 gr jacketed bullets, in the Enfield pictured I use as one of my test guns. http://www.gunownerstv.com/585enth.jpg And more fun shooting, using a pistol grip on one of the 585HE falling block test guns. Real heavy loads try to spin us around like a weathervane.. Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/585tact.jpg |
A related case to our 585 is the 24ga FH that has 3" chamber and
brass cases reworked 577NE cases, that we reduce the rim down to .720"... the 24ga size rim...We make minimum chamber so that 24ga plastic cases, 2.5" long just fit. And min chamber cuts down on a lot of brass case expansion, which the wears cases out. The barrels are same bore barrels as our 585 and the hollowbase minie bullets work great in it, the ones that are .585", 440gr to 540gr. Makes hairy 24ga gun for deer, etc. Be useful in shotgun only areas. Guys on GB sells the .585" minies. And the brass cases, we don't have to wait for them to be made. http://www.gunownerstv.com/24galoads.jpg Here is what 585HE barrel and its monoblock look like before screwing the barrel in.This one was 585HE, but process same if monoblocking in 24ga FH...Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/monostub.jpg |
I wonder how a sabot with a .458 bullet would perform?
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We found something like that.
Here is picture of 585HE with 24ga FH ...585 longer one. Both use same bullets/slugs, same caliber barrels. Different easy usages, 24ga FH is an easy setup in break actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks. http://www.gunownerstv.com/585-24.jpg Picture of non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds 458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that someone pulled out, and they wouldn't stay in tight after pulled. Supposed to be for 20ga, But this sabot was a loose fit in 20ga, though made for 20ga, so I shrunk diameter of bottom rib, fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE. A press in fit gives good resistance for good ignition. real tight fit. http://www.gunownerstv.com/458sabot24.jpg Here is a 24ga/585 discarding sabot that holds .452" 45cal pistol bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal Muzzle loaders.. With 250 gr bullet in 585HE, hopped up load will go about mach 4. http://www.gunownerstv.com/452sabot24.jpg For ease of getting actions in stocks, I like composites.They are strong. come colors, many can be painted with tough surface paint. And They need weight added for big bore use.. An easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts, use rubber coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect, without being too heavy if using that much lead. And coating keeps them quiet, and we hold them in with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/mouse.jpg |
First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankunter with his Ruger #1.
If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/tankbuff.jpg I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise, figuring out an extractor is a problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/ph212lugs.jpg |
Here is picture of 100 cases loaded with CEB solid nose bullets
and hollowpoints. This bullet is a turned solid with wide meplat or wide hollowpoint. . http://www.gunownerstv.com/100ceb.jpg Here is pic of a Enfield with a jeweled and polished bolt, going to be 585HE. In the back, Bolt jeweling and polishing done by the great craftsmen, Bob Snapp, years ago. http://www.gunownerstv.com/585enjewel.jpg Picture comparing unfired and fired cases showing our tough cases One on the left fired with 650gr at 2400 and base above belt didn't hardly expand, Sized the top and reloaded/shot again. And AHC will make guns now with our 585HE for any wanting super top quality guns.They have some cases to give to guys as a sample to show guys the case. Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/baseexp585.jpg |
Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro
Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like. Usually set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga size to 577NE, to the 585 Nyati with the picture of Ross Seyfreid shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over, to our 585HE the strongest yet. The 577NE is an offshoot of the 24 gauge caliber, only they went eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short cases and black powder, cases built like shotgun cases, called the 577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, still with black powder, then on to drawn brass cases, called 577 BP Express. then to 3" and other longer cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet diameter ended up at .585". This general bore diameter of cartridge guns and muzzle loaders, it is really interesting on how they developed and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all over the British Empire, by the tens of millions. Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have made a 24ga FH, a slight regression to earlier times, by taking 577NE brass, and reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And stamp the caseheads 24 ga. For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions, and finding reasonable price rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, work for 24ga. The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are about a third the cost of 600NE brass, or getting turned 24ga cases made. We could use 24ga thin cases but they are a pain, expand way too much, with slug loads which makes resizing without crumpling cases a problem. Info about the power in types of guns normally set up with 24ga FH, break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case. Now using the better, heavier 3" brass we got, we can increase speed to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel gun, gets us near 2 1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which the actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size. So makes relatively smaller bore shotgun, 24ga, with 458WIN power. .Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc. Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed |
Here is a different look at 585 sabots holding 458cal bullets.
Sabots hold leafd as well as jacketed. http://www.gunownerstv.com/458-585f.jpg Here is a long turned streamlined bullet in our 585. http://www.gunownerstv.com/barlong.jpg Anyone wanting to import barrels, actions, cases, etc into Canada from here can work through Prophet River Firearms in Lloydminster, AB. The here being the US, as well as our group with barrels, dies, cases, and McGowen with .585 barrels in stock, CH4D with 585HE dies in stock, gunshops with # 31 shellholders. And later few retail outlets setup with cases in stock... . Ed |
Another application for our 585 HE is for guys with the 14.5mm
PTRDs, to use our case with chamber insert. In many places 14.5 cases are scarce, real expensive, as well as most 14.5mm cases being steel are not the easiest to resize/reload. Our case sizes like regular cases and can be easily reloaded many times. And in a PTRD with almost a 5 foot long barrel can get 650gr spitzer bullet to the same speed the 14.5mm gets a 900 gr using 3 times as much powder. 3300 fps. Or get a 900gr at 2800. Great possibilities for fun shooting. And tactical use in a place where it would be useful to reload in the operations field, where steel cases are scarce. A 100 cases do over 2000 reloads. http://www.gunownerstv.com/585-14,5mm.jpg I like Enfields to put our 585HEs in, for reasonable cost guns. . Here is inexpensive way to fancy up the Enfield Bolt handle by cutting the dogleg part of the old handle off and welding on inexpensive contoured handles I found, one of which is like Ruger 77 handle, one on the right . Something even a novice like me can do..... http://www.gunownerstv.com/enhandle.jpg A lot of guys are crazy about CEB bullets. Here are light 450gr ones in our 24ga FH. The hollowpoint can range in weight 450gr to 700gr.. The 24ga FH is nice complement to our 585HE for the shotgun only deer hunters... Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/24liteceb.jpg |
Here is what a 585 bull barrel blank looks like,
1 5/8" OD and 32" long. May put it in a heavy action. Fourth one from the left. Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/585bull.jpg |
For lightweight plinking, deer hunting, etc, in 585HE as well as 24ga FH
here is picture of 58cal Hornady sabot that holds .451/.452" light bullets 225 to 300 gr. A way to shoot targets economically. Low recoil but a big bang and satisfaction. That sabot is one made for ML, but with .452" bullet in it is a real tight fit in brass cases, to stay in place and give good ignition. A 250 gr bullet would go about mach 4 with a top load.. http://www.gunownerstv.com/58hornadyjkt.jpg Here is what 585 bull barrel, target blank looks like, 1 5/8" OD and 32" long. It'll go in heavy action of some kind. 4th one from the left. The one in yellow sleave on top, is a heavy contoured one with muzzle of .980" ..The 5th, 6th, 7th blanks on bottom are straight 1.375" 585 regular twist blanks. One in paper wrapper is slow twist 585 barrel...Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/585bull.jpg |
They are importing another pallet of our cases getting here
to the states in next few weeks. To add to these and others in barrels, to get us a big enough volume, to get some in the hands of a few catalog dealers and reloading supply stores.Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/allhebbl.jpg |
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