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-   -   Indirect Water Heater Help - Caber??? (http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=382518)

Hooter 06-01-2020 07:37 PM

Indirect Water Heater Help - Caber???
 
Hi there,

I have a boiler system that also heats the water in my hot water tank (ie indirect water heater). I also have a hot water recirculating system to my second floor so that I get hot water pretty much instantly from any faucet upstairs. My problem is that when I get up in the morning to have a shower I turn my faucet on and get hot water, but within a minute or so the water gets cooler so I have to turn the lever to get more hot water. Then after another 30s to a minute then I have to turn the lever again. I have to keep doing this until I’m almost at maximum hot water, and then I can shower comfortably till the end of my shower.

My question is this: why do I have to keep turning the hot water up more and more to keep the temperature the same, then it stays at a comfortable temperature for 10-15 minutes once I’m nearly maxed out on hot water? FYI, it’s been this way since my house was built about 4 years ago. I’ve just put up with it till now.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Trevor

CaberTosser 06-01-2020 07:52 PM

Is it just at that fixture? For instance as a test, can you run that until it starts to drop temp and then go try the bathroom sink faucet to see it its also cooler? Sometimes the fault can be within the temperature balancing mechanism of the shower cartridge. Of course the heater will be the culprit if that faucet is also not as hot as you're used to.

Hooter 06-01-2020 08:02 PM

Sorry, I should have mentioned this before, but I noticed that all my faucets on the 2nd floor seem to require a constant adjustment to keep the water at a comfortable temperature.

I’ll do the test again just to be sure, though....more to come.

Hooter 06-01-2020 08:11 PM

So my bathtub seems to have the same issue. It’s like the water comes out quite hot for 10-20 seconds, then I need to keep opening the hot water tap to keep the temp constant until I get to where I’m at about 80% open with the hot water and then it seems to stabilize.

CaberTosser 06-01-2020 08:46 PM

Is the indirect heater you refer to a heat exchanger within a combi-boiler or are you talking about an actual indirect tank with storage that is piped to a boiler?

Sounds to me like a combi-boiler by what you describe happening

Dewey Cox 06-01-2020 08:52 PM

Is there a check valve on the return line of your recirculation setup?
If there's not, or it's stuck open, some water could be coming to your fixture backwards through the recirc leg, and that will be colder water from the bottom of your tank.

CaberTosser 06-01-2020 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dewey Cox (Post 4179930)
Is there a check valve on the return line of your recirculation setup?
If there's not, or it's stuck open, some water could be coming to your fixture backwards through the recirc leg, and that will be colder water from the bottom of your tank.

That's a distinct possibility. I was at a call recently where there was a swing-type check valve installed on the vertical, where its default position would be wide open :sign0176:

Hooter 06-01-2020 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dewey Cox (Post 4179930)
Is there a check valve on the return line of your recirculation setup?
If there's not, or it's stuck open, some water could be coming to your fixture backwards through the recirc leg, and that will be colder water from the bottom of your tank.

I’ll check this first thing tomorrow morning.

Dewey Cox 06-01-2020 10:49 PM

To check if this is the problem, turn off your recirc pump, and close the ball valve on the return line (hopefully there is one)
See if the hot stays more consistent then.

Hooter 06-02-2020 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dewey Cox (Post 4179993)
To check if this is the problem, turn off your recirc pump, and close the ball valve on the return line (hopefully there is one)
See if the hot stays more consistent then.


I’ll definitely try this when I get home. In response to your question about the check valve, I verified there’s a check valve in the line.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...bb345e78d4.jpg


My finger is pointing at the check valve. The flow is downwards.

Trevor

CaberTosser 06-02-2020 09:07 AM

There is a good possibility that check valve is sticking, I see you have an actual indirect tank so given that, there should not be the possibility of some symptoms that would be present in a combi-boiler. Run the shower with everything as it already is and feel that recirculation line at the check valve. It should be hot; if it is cold, then flow through it is reversing when the hot water is running. Of course if that’s the case, that check valve should be replaced.

Dewey’s suggestion in post #9 will also confirm this.

Hooter 06-02-2020 09:18 AM

Hi Caber and Dewey. Thanks for the info. I’ll give that a go tonight as soon as I get home from work and let you know.

Trevor

CaberTosser 06-02-2020 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hooter (Post 4180105)
Hi Caber. Thanks for the info. I’ll give that a go tonight as soon as I get home from work and let you know.

Trevor

Dewey was onto it first, pre-photo. I was still thinking combi-boiler until the pic ;)

Hooter 06-02-2020 08:19 PM

Well, I was really hoping the check valve was NFG, but the return line was just as hot as the feed line. Any other suggestions? I noticed there’s a little dial on the side of the recirc pump with what appear to be temperatures. Should I crank that up a touch?

Trevor

Dewey Cox 06-03-2020 12:04 AM

Well, I'll keep throwing crap at the wall, and see what sticks...

Before your next shower, turn off the valve to the expansion tank on top of your water heater.
See if that helps.
(But don't forget to open that valve again after)
If it does make a difference, that expansion tank might have to get moved from the outlet of the tank to the inlet.

Reeves1 06-03-2020 05:42 AM

I think your wife is mad at you during this lock down & is messing with your head by running hot water else where.....

Hooter 06-03-2020 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reeves1 (Post 4180616)
I think your wife is mad at you during this lock down & is messing with your head by running hot water else where.....

The arsenic in my meals I can handle, but she’s gone too far with this hot water thing.....😉

Hooter 06-03-2020 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dewey Cox (Post 4180603)
Well, I'll keep throwing crap at the wall, and see what sticks...

Before your next shower, turn off the valve to the expansion tank on top of your water heater.
See if that helps.
(But don't forget to open that valve again after)
If it does make a difference, that expansion tank might have to get moved from the outlet of the tank to the inlet.

Well, unfortunately closing the valve to the expansion tank didn’t solve the issue. Keep throwing crap please!

Dewey Cox 06-03-2020 08:34 AM

Another thought I had...
Do you find your cold water to be warm for a while after you turn on the tap?
Maybe the hot recirc line is radiating heat to the cold water lines, or at the very least, there is a lot of volume of water in those long lines that come up to room temperature over night. The first few minutes of your shower have room temperature water coming in the cold side, and cool off as your shower goes on.
Try running your cold tap in the same bathroom for a bit before your next shower, filling the line with cold water. Or turn your shower valve to straight cold for a minute or two first. See if that affects your shower at all.

ksteed17 06-03-2020 05:20 PM

What style of shower trim do you have? I’ve had issues a few times with the delta 1800 series where the water mixes in the cartridge and you can’t get enough hot water through. Is there a dial on the front of your control that you set the temperature to? Or just a single handle?

Hooter 06-03-2020 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksteed17 (Post 4181005)
What style of shower trim do you have? I’ve had issues a few times with the delta 1800 series where the water mixes in the cartridge and you can’t get enough hot water through. Is there a dial on the front of your control that you set the temperature to? Or just a single handle?

It’s a Grohe single handle unit. I remember the plumber fiddling with some kind of cartridge inside the assembly, but I’m not confident he knew what he was doing when I brought this up the first time. Any chance there’s anything I can do with it?

Hooter 06-03-2020 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dewey Cox (Post 4180676)
Another thought I had...
Do you find your cold water to be warm for a while after you turn on the tap?
Maybe the hot recirc line is radiating heat to the cold water lines, or at the very least, there is a lot of volume of water in those long lines that come up to room temperature over night. The first few minutes of your shower have room temperature water coming in the cold side, and cool off as your shower goes on.
Try running your cold tap in the same bathroom for a bit before your next shower, filling the line with cold water. Or turn your shower valve to straight cold for a minute or two first. See if that affects your shower at all.

I’ll try this tomorrow morning and let you know. Thanks for the suggestions!

CaberTosser 06-03-2020 09:03 PM

You noted that its been like that since new. I'm wondering if the cold water inlet is piped into the hot water outlet of your indirect heater and the hot water line is piped into the cold water inlet. That is a top connect tank so the cold inlet will have a stainless steel dip tube that brings the cold water down to the bottom of the tank, and the hot water convects up and is piped out from the top. If your cold water is introduced at the top and the hot outlet is drawing from the dip tube at the bottom where the cold incoming water will mix down & accumulate, that could explain your predicament.

Test: turn off the recirc pump and close a valve beside it. Run the hot water and feel the two pipes on the domestic water side of the indirect heater; the cold one should be going into the port marked 'inlet' or 'cold' and of course the hot one should be coming out the 'hot' or 'outlet' side. It is possible those factory stickers could be inversed by a new employee or smacked on it late on a Friday afternoon, that can be cross-checked against a factory diagram found online after looking up the brand and model #.

Opps, I just noticed in the photo that the factory sticker notes all the locations on the single sticker, that should minimize a sticker error.

Hooter 06-04-2020 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dewey Cox (Post 4180676)
Another thought I had...
Do you find your cold water to be warm for a while after you turn on the tap?
Maybe the hot recirc line is radiating heat to the cold water lines, or at the very least, there is a lot of volume of water in those long lines that come up to room temperature over night. The first few minutes of your shower have room temperature water coming in the cold side, and cool off as your shower goes on.
Try running your cold tap in the same bathroom for a bit before your next shower, filling the line with cold water. Or turn your shower valve to straight cold for a minute or two first. See if that affects your shower at all.

So, I tried turning on on the cold water for the first minute and then proceeded to have my shower as per normal. I noticed that I had to turn the handle Further towards the hot side than usual to begin with, and then the temperature seemed to be more constant overall although I still had to adjust a couple of times throughout the shower, but the movements were less than normal.

Hopefully that makes sense.

Hooter 06-04-2020 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaberTosser (Post 4181115)
You noted that its been like that since new. I'm wondering if the cold water inlet is piped into the hot water outlet of your indirect heater and the hot water line is piped into the cold water inlet. That is a top connect tank so the cold inlet will have a stainless steel dip tube that brings the cold water down to the bottom of the tank, and the hot water convects up and is piped out from the top. If your cold water is introduced at the top and the hot outlet is drawing from the dip tube at the bottom where the cold incoming water will mix down & accumulate, that could explain your predicament.

Test: turn off the recirc pump and close a valve beside it. Run the hot water and feel the two pipes on the domestic water side of the indirect heater; the cold one should be going into the port marked 'inlet' or 'cold' and of course the hot one should be coming out the 'hot' or 'outlet' side. It is possible those factory stickers could be inversed by a new employee or smacked on it late on a Friday afternoon, that can be cross-checked against a factory diagram found online after looking up the brand and model #.

Opps, I just noticed in the photo that the factory sticker notes all the locations on the single sticker, that should minimize a sticker error.

I’ve checked this in the past and the cold go in to the correct port, as does the hot. I’m baffled....


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