Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum

Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum (http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/index.php)
-   Guns & Ammo Discussion (http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
-   -   Aftermarket Barrels - Break-in and Cleaning (http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=347586)

260 Rem 07-08-2018 01:16 PM

Aftermarket Barrels - Break-in and Cleaning
 
Interested to learn the practices/techniques employed by shooters that have competed at the National and International levels.

HW223 07-09-2018 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 260 Rem (Post 3808963)
Interested to learn the practices/techniques employed by shooters that have competed at the National and International levels.

Break in for our sbr barrels , this will be combined with fire forming the brass ( with bullets seated .050 long with light neck tension) for the barrel usually 22-25 pieces This brass will last the lifetime of the barrel in most cases and we operate way over the Sammi loads most of the time.
Shoot one , look in the bore with the bore scope If there is no copper just the grey colour from the carbon /graphite in the powder , keep going ( you are very lucky when this happens it is not the norm ) if there is copper present either in the lead throat area or at the muzzle end , clean
Using a good quality bore guide ,Push three wet patches through the the barrel pick them off the end do not pull the rod back to knock the patch off ( can cause crown damage if it jams ) , each one will normally be less black than the last , then soak the bronze brush with cleaner and work it back and forth, if your using a water base it will start to squeak ,when it squaks all the way from chamber to muzzle your done , usually about ten passes , take care not to push the brush much past the muzzle so as not to run the rod on the bottom of the crown ,
Now run a dry patch or two through the bore , have a look with the bore scope if all the copper is gone and the steal is clean run a patch down the barrel with eezox or lock eez on it and your ready to shoot the next one , if the is a blueish black colour on the steal st the chamber it must go , put a small dab of iosso on a SOFT nylon brush and short stroke (6-7”) the chamber end 6-10 times , now put a dry patch on and push it in the same distance ,now pull it back out through the bore guide , repeat this until a cleanish dry patch comes out , now wet a patch liberally with cleaner and push it through to get the rest of the residue , the idea here being not to push the iosso down the bore but to only work the affected area ,
Now look with the bore scope again , it should be clean again run a patch down it with eezox or lock eez ,
Shoot and repeat , at some point between 7-10 and 25 rounds the coppering should quit , I have seen some take as long as 100 rounds (aggravating ) ,
Even the best lapped barrels have some little “hairs “ along a land here and there , as well there are tiny striations that need to be magnified to be seen ,this and the reamer marks are what your “breaking in” , the reamer marks usually go away in 25 rounds or so ,
Things not to do , never use iosso and a stiff nylon brush , this is a good way to wreck a bore , never use iosso on a patch or a patch wrapped around the nylon brush all it will do is polish the lands and make the barrel a coppering fouling mess , jb’s Also works I told ,
If you;don’t clean the copper and the blue black scale out of a new barrel your just putting more copper over old copper and it will never get after the problem are under neath ,
The top guys can tell when a barrel is fouling up by the bullet holes in the target they can see it coming , that’s a whole other discussion
Cleaning , most shoot between 7-10 shots on a target ,then clean , most barrels will shoot 10-25 rounds before some sort of fouling starts to appear that will kill your agg , the trick is to be in front of it not clean it after it wrecks your day , like adjusting poa for the last shot, good way to wind up on page two .
I’m sure there is more that I have missed but see if this works for a start

260 Rem 07-09-2018 09:14 AM

Thanks, much appreciated. Sounds like a good bore scope is key to the operation. Also illustrates that copper fouled barrels are no friend to the consistency required in the SBR game.
Can you comment on the effectiveness of bronze VS nylon brushes?

HW223 07-09-2018 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 260 Rem (Post 3809247)
Thanks, much appreciated. Sounds like a good bore scope is key to the operation. Also illustrates that copper fouled barrels are no friend to the consistency required in the SBR game.
Can you comment on the effectiveness of bronze VS nylon brushes?

Bronze brush is best for general brushing with cleaner , need a small bottle of water or alcohol to neutralize the cleaner so as not to eat the bronze when not in use , we throw them away after a day of shooting they begin to loose Brissles that can get stuck And cause problems ,
Nylon brushes don’t seem to clean as good so we use them for the iossso but not general cleaning,

Don_Parsons 07-11-2018 07:49 AM

Each person gets to pick and choose what best works for their cleaning operations.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/techn...eaning-debate/

I had mine to a science long before this article came out.

I like the fast, simple, easy clean.

My agg is holding even between the "year-end" over all spread so long as I do my part.

Pathfinder76 07-11-2018 08:25 AM

I don’t mean to sound rude, but this illustrates as good a reason as any why NOT to break in a barrel. Those who do should now realize why that is. Laughing.

HW223 07-11-2018 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck (Post 3810253)
I don’t mean to sound rude, but this illustrates as good a reason as any why NOT to break in a barrel. Those who do should now realize why that is. Laughing.

As I read the article , seams everyone they interviewed that shoots short range breaks in and cleans often ,Billy’s quote is dead on , if you ain’t brushing you ain’t winning, illustrates as good a reason as I need to break in and clean ,

Full Curl Earl 07-11-2018 02:23 PM

Barrel
 
I would offer that if you choose not to follow a break in regime, as suggested by the barrel manufacturer, that you not try to warranty a poorly shooting tube with “ I read on AO to just keep shooting her, and that breaking in a barrel was a sales gimmick”. Benchmark would have ya pound sand I suspect.
Cleaning a gun is part of shooting, and I have some high round count magnum rifles that I suspect have benefited from proper maintenance.

Robmcleod82 07-11-2018 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl (Post 3810440)
I would offer that if you choose not to follow a break in regime, as suggested by the barrel manufacturer, that you not try to warranty a poorly shooting tube with “ I read on AO to just keep shooting her, and that breaking in a barrel was a sales gimmick”. Benchmark would have ya pound sand I suspect.
Cleaning a gun is part of shooting, and I have some high round count magnum rifles that I suspect have benefited from proper maintenance.

More barrels are wrecked by cleaning than being shot.....

HW223 07-11-2018 03:57 PM

[QUOTE=Robmcleod82;3810474]More barrels are wrecked by cleaning than being shot.....[/
Barrel wear depends greatly on the steel, lot to lot there are big differences . Barrels that are wrecked by cleaning are due to poor quality bore guides and improper methods , if you clean a barrel properly it will last just as long as a barrel that is never cleaned and allows firecracking to get bad.

Robmcleod82 07-11-2018 04:56 PM

[QUOTE=HW223;3810484]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robmcleod82 (Post 3810474)
More barrels are wrecked by cleaning than being shot.....[/
Barrel wear depends greatly on the steel, lot to lot there are big differences . Barrels that are wrecked by cleaning are due to poor quality bore guides and improper methods , if you clean a barrel properly it will last just as long as a barrel that is never cleaned and allows firecracking to get bad.

Properly being the operative word....

Pathfinder76 07-11-2018 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl (Post 3810440)
I would offer that if you choose not to follow a break in regime, as suggested by the barrel manufacturer, that you not try to warranty a poorly shooting tube with “ I read on AO to just keep shooting her, and that breaking in a barrel was a sales gimmick”. Benchmark would have ya pound sand I suspect.
Cleaning a gun is part of shooting, and I have some high round count magnum rifles that I suspect have benefited from proper maintenance.

I’ve had exactly one barrel warrantied. I did not get asked if I broke the barrel in. I was asked a few questions. They liked the answers, and sent me a new barrel.

Full Curl Earl 07-11-2018 10:31 PM

What manufacturer
 
What manufacturer was that, and what answers did they like, lol.
And I agree that I’ve seen quite a few barrels damaged by improper cleaning as well, fewer stainless by a significant margin. I’ve scoped a lot of barrels, and fouling is never consistent, clean a barrel without copper removal and slug it. Then remove the copper and slug it again. The difference is quite noticeable. (Especially if you gently reinstall the original slug back into the bore)
What does it mean on paper? Well, that’s up to how well you deliver down range.
Cleaning has worked well for me, and will continue to do so.

I’ve had exactly one barrel warrantied. I did not get asked if I broke the barrel in. I was asked a few questions. They liked the answers, and sent me a new barrel.[/QUOTE]

HW223 07-11-2018 10:54 PM

Grey (graphite) fouling is desirable . Copper in the Bore results in bullets leaving the group

Salavee 07-11-2018 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HW223 (Post 3810676)
Grey (graphite) fouling is desirable . Copper in the Bore results in bullets leaving the group

That may be the case with some barrels, but not all. I have more that one custom barrel that won't shoot it's best until at least four or five shots have been through it. That includes both lapped an un-lapped barrels with either cut or button rifling.
Finding two barrels that react exactly the same to fouling is pretty rare from what I have seen. For the most part, I leave my barrels alone until accuracy begins to fall off. Sometimes it takes 40-60 rounds or better before that condition shows up.

JD848 07-12-2018 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck (Post 3810529)
I’ve had exactly one barrel warrantied. I did not get asked if I broke the barrel in. I was asked a few questions. They liked the answers, and sent me a new barrel.

If it had nothing to do with the BI shooting and cleaning then why bring it up,this is about rifle BI process in rifles,not about some poorly made barrel,get it together man,you sure you don't drink?

LAUGHING HAHAHHAHAHAHA and what the hell is that all about after every post.I don't want to be rude,but hahah laughing in your face you dip.Dosen't sound cool hey so why do it to others.

There's guys that forgot more than you will ever know ,so if you think your the best in the world,get in line there's a billion on top of there game ahead of you and there not laughing.I could care less if the inside of you barrel looked like a bad muffler,but don't feed stuff that's wrong or incorrect and then laugh in there face.
You said you were attacked by an anti hunter once,you sure it wasn't the wipe out rep.

Pathfinder76 07-12-2018 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JD848 (Post 3810699)
If it had nothing to do with the BI shooting and cleaning then why bring it up,this is about rifle BI process in rifles,not about some poorly made barrel,get it together man,you sure you don't drink?

LAUGHING HAHAHHAHAHAHA and what the hell is that all about after every post.I don't want to be rude,but hahah laughing in your face you dip.Dosen't sound cool hey so why do it to others.

There's guys that forgot more than you will ever know ,so if you think your the best in the world,get in line there's a billion on top of there game ahead of you and there not laughing.I could care less if the inside of you barrel looked like a bad muffler,but don't feed stuff that's wrong or incorrect and then laugh in there face.
You said you were attacked by an anti hunter once,you sure it wasn't the wipe out rep.

You are nuts.

HW223 07-12-2018 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salavee (Post 3810684)
That may be the case with some barrels, but not all. I have more that one custom barrel that won't shoot it's best until at least four or five shots have been through it. That includes both lapped an un-lapped barrels with either cut or button rifling.
Finding two barrels that react exactly the same to fouling is pretty rare from what I have seen. For the most part, I leave my barrels alone until accuracy begins to fall off. Sometimes it takes 40-60 rounds or better before that condition shows up.

What discipline do you compete in ?
If we have a barrel that won’t shoot until 4-5 rounds go through , it will never stay on the gun for a competition .we would keep it as a practice barrel and only if it was able to shoot low .2’s in practice , if not it’s scrap, shooting until the accuracy falls off in competition is a good way to wind up on page two. The idea is to stay in front of stray shots, different disciplines have different requirements , some have no time to clean but also don’t demand the same accuracy as srb
Different lots of steel do respond differently , that is part of the reason it takes some barrels 10-15 rounds to break and others 150 rounds , usually try to buy barrels with consecutive numbers or from the same lots , even that is no guarantee that they are from the same lot of steel , usually you can tell when you machine them , they will cut the same

Salavee 07-12-2018 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HW223 (Post 3810774)
What discipline do you compete in ?
If we have a barrel that won’t shoot until 4-5 rounds go through , it will never stay on the gun for a competition .we would keep it as a practice barrel and only if it was able to shoot low .2’s in practice , if not it’s scrap, shooting until the accuracy falls off in competition is a good way to wind up on page two. The idea is to stay in front of stray shots, different disciplines have different requirements , some have no time to clean but also don’t demand the same accuracy as srb
Different lots of steel do respond differently , that is part of the reason it takes some barrels 10-15 rounds to break and others 150 rounds , usually try to buy barrels with consecutive numbers or from the same lots , even that is no guarantee that they are from the same lot of steel , usually you can tell when you machine them , they will cut the same

Sorry .. I wasn't aware that I had to compete in order to know a bit about barrels. I suppose the guys that don't make the top five percent in a competitive shooting discipline don't know much either.

Dick284 07-12-2018 09:49 AM

Competitor vs non competitor.
Break in vs. Not breaking in.
O style press vs. Co-axial press
Collet die vs. Bushing die.
Balance beam vs. Electronic scale.
Bipod vs. Bags and rests
Muffs vs. Plugs
Chevy vs. Dodge.

Everyone thinks theirs is superior to the others.

It’s all relevant, to what you’re trying to accomplish.

For the great majority of us the benifits of one over the other are about as decernable as one toothpaste vs. The other.

If it brings you comfort, by all means do as you may.

If you’re hell bent upon imposing your will upon others because, you believe your process or beliefs are superior to the next guys, your on shakey ground that I reserve for evangelical ministries, and ultra polarized political whack jobs.

260 Rem 07-12-2018 10:03 AM

We're getting a bit sidetracked here, so let's stick with that asked in the OP, which is to benefit from the best practices employed by folks that compete beyond the club level...regardless of discipline.

HW223 07-12-2018 11:33 AM

Just trying to answer the original post , not really interested in arguing with guys who don’t compete about how things are done at the national / international level, if you have a better way by all means get out there and prove it at a match , thats where the separation of what works and what doesn’t really happens , if you start kicking butt on a regular basis I’m all ears

Dean2 07-14-2018 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HW223 (Post 3810879)
Just trying to answer the original post , not really interested in arguing with guys who don’t compete about how things are done at the national / international level, if you have a better way by all means get out there and prove it at a match , thats where the separation of what works and what doesn’t really happens , if you start kicking butt on a regular basis I’m all ears

Well said.

The outer limits of top competition is what often defines the ultimate processes. Does that make those same processes necessary for the average shooter. No. Nascar rebuilds their motors after every race, 500 or less miles. Does that mean we should do it too on our daily drivers. Certainly not.

It is interesting stuff we can learn from and be entertained by. If you want to emulate the top competitors fine. Doesn't mean everyone in the world needs to do the same thing, and it doesn't make them lesser people. It entirely depends on the outcome you are looking for, but if you think you can compete at the top of the field you best be willing to emulate or improve on the processes of the top 10%.

Pathfinder76 07-14-2018 01:09 PM

The trouble is, that you can’t emulate them unless you are doing exactly what they do. Are you interested in packing a 20lb single shot rifle afield with a fixed 20 power scope? In my opinion, with some of this stuff, you are either in or out. Time and money should be focussed on stuff that actually matters (ie, I like concentric ammo) rather than stuff that is tough to prove effective, even at the highest level.

260 Rem 07-14-2018 04:29 PM

I think the maximum Light Varmint class SBR rig (all in, including scope) is 10.5 lbs? ... and the HV at 13.5 lbs??

Pathfinder76 07-14-2018 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 260 Rem (Post 3812019)
I think the maximum Light Varmint class SBR rig (all in, including scope) is 10.5 lbs? ... and the HV at 13.5 lbs??

And hardly made for real field use. Nor shot off a bench in the field.

HW223 07-16-2018 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck (Post 3812020)
And hardly made for real field use. Nor shot off a bench in the field.

My “field “ rigs weigh Roughly the same as my bench guns , have variable scopes 2.5x25 power for bigger game and 5x50 variable for varmint , shot off bipods ,I use the same process for break in ,cleaning , loading and brass prep , I work with them until they shoot 1/2 Moa , cold bore shots from a freshly cleaned rifle is with in 1/4” at 100 yrds , calibres are ,223,6x223,20 ppc ,22 ppc ,6 ppc, 6br, 6x47,6.5x47 ,6.5x284, 6.5x06 , 338 lapua mag (this one shoots just over 1/2 moa not under ) also wieghs a bunch more ,after they are set up I practice from prone and sitting at the range out to 500 metres , I do practice standing but I am a poor silhouette shooter, everything translates from br from properly setting up the rifle to brass prep and load development ,

Pathfinder76 07-16-2018 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HW223 (Post 3812730)
My “field “ rigs weigh Roughly the same as my bench guns , have variable scopes 2.5x25 power for bigger game and 5x50 variable for varmint , shot off bipods ,I use the same process for break in ,cleaning , loading and brass prep , I work with them until they shoot 1/2 Moa , cold bore shots from a freshly cleaned rifle is with in 1/4” at 100 yrds , calibres are ,223,6x223,20 ppc ,22 ppc ,6 ppc, 6br, 6x47,6.5x47 ,6.5x284, 6.5x06 , 338 lapua mag (this one shoots just over 1/2 moa not under ) also wieghs a bunch more ,after they are set up I practice from prone and sitting at the range out to 500 metres , I do practice standing but I am a poor silhouette shooter, everything translates from br from properly setting up the rifle to brass prep and load development ,

I get a little further from the truck than that.

HW223 07-16-2018 08:47 AM

All my big game hunting is walking/hiking or stands as I don’t have horses, so I’m not sure what the truck comment means chuck , we call for coyotes so I guess we are usually within a few hundred yards of where we park the truck for that , gophers are usually park the truck and walk the field , all the big game I’ve taken over the years has been under 300 yards with the majority under 100 , I don’t go through as much work to make my field rifles shoot as good as a bench gun (when they get to 1/2. Moa I’m happy ) , but since I know how To make them shoot good I do it,everyone needs to find there own comfort level , if that 1 moa then that’s great too,


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:12 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.