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-   -   Solution for Rural Crime? (http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=331195)

raab 10-11-2017 11:44 AM

Solution for Rural Crime?
 
Ive been thinking of the problem concerning rural crime and think Ive come up with an answer to it. That being volunteer Police teams similar to a volunteer Fire Department.

Basically what they would be is a group of volunteers who are funded by the municipal government. These volunteers would do training in apprehension and work along side the RCMP. They would NOT be used in regular police work like ticketing, domestic disputes, etc.... But would be called in for apprehension of criminals and Search and Rescue.

One of the biggest problems in Rural Alberta is that the RCMP dont have enough support, so if they want to go arrest someone they need to call in a member who is off duty or do it during the day. If we can give them a team of lets say 4-6 guys, fully trained on how to apprehend a suspect then I think apprehending criminals would be a hell of a lot easier for them as well as safer. I feel it would be worth pursuing as an option, depending on support from the general population.

Obviously these guys would all need to pass a background check, be proficient with their firearms, be willing to take the training and swear an oath. Basically they'd be becoming Deputies for the municipality in which they live.

JB_AOL 10-11-2017 12:04 PM

It all comes down to manpower.
It's easy to say "here's a solution", but when you think about the logistics. 4-6 people per night. How big of area do they "patrol?". Basically comes down to the same problem as the LEO's, can't be everywhere.

Many communities already have "Citizens on Patrol", and it's strictly a roving neighbourhood watch that calls the RCMP if they see anything suspicious. That is a much better idea than putting untrained civilians in the line of fire, and getting them to arrest someone.

Oh, and allowing someone who has basically zero tactical arms training to be allowed to use guns as "force" is asking for trouble. Not to mention the majority of police training is defusing a situation w/o the use of force (or implying force).

Jack Hardin 10-11-2017 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raab (Post 3641390)
Ive been thinking of the problem concerning rural crime and think Ive come up with an answer to it. That being volunteer Police teams similar to a volunteer Fire Department.

Basically what they would be is a group of volunteers who are funded by the municipal government. These volunteers would do training in apprehension and work along side the RCMP. They would NOT be used in regular police work like ticketing, domestic disputes, etc.... But would be called in for apprehension of criminals and Search and Rescue.

One of the biggest problems in Rural Alberta is that the RCMP dont have enough support, so if they want to go arrest someone they need to call in a member who is off duty or do it during the day. If we can give them a team of lets say 4-6 guys, fully trained on how to apprehend a suspect then I think apprehending criminals would be a hell of a lot easier for them as well as safer. I feel it would be worth pursuing as an option, depending on support from the general population.

Obviously these guys would all need to pass a background check, be proficient with their firearms, be willing to take the training and swear an oath. Basically they'd be becoming Deputies for the municipality in which they live.

A good thought but, it wouldn't work for the same reason that they pulled Auxiliary Constables from going on patrol with regular members (liability). Also, who wants to go into a dangerous situation for free? I can't see the RCMP arming civilians to assist them on routine matters.

HowSwedeItIs 10-11-2017 12:17 PM

Prairie justice

Gray Wolf 10-11-2017 12:40 PM

A variation already exists -
 
.
http://rdcounty.ca/images/CivicAlert...me%20Watch.jpg

Link - http://www.ruralcrimewatch.ab.ca/


The actual apprehension and arrests should be done by the police.

The last thing we need is a bunch of Wannabe Cops trying to do it!

.

2000victory 10-11-2017 12:43 PM

Rural protection
 
Where I grew up...before they had the Rural Crime Watch ,we had our own rural protection system, all of our neighbours , and our family actively participated in looking out for our neighbours...not just by calling the authorities about suspicious behaviour...the neighbours would actually get in their vehicles and physically come and check things out...the kids would also get involved...I remember many times kinda on purpose blocking the road playing to slow down a vehicle so we could get info and description or we saw a neighbour driving up to catch up to that vehicle...it is unsettling for area visitors to be approached and or confronted by a local farmer , if you are up to no good... no need to confron just follow and get description ,but nowadays no one wants to get involved so prob won't work...maybe if more people made more effort to get to know their neighbours and made an effort to be more approachable by your neighbours...

Ricki Bobby 10-11-2017 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2000victory (Post 3641434)
Where I grew up...before they had the Rural Crime Watch ,we had our own rural protection system, all of our neighbours , and our family actively participated in looking out for our neighbours...not just by calling the authorities about suspicious behaviour...the neighbours would actually get in their vehicles and physically come and check things out...the kids would also get involved...I remember many times kinda on purpose blocking the road playing to slow down a vehicle so we could get info and description or we saw a neighbour driving up to catch up to that vehicle...it is unsettling for area visitors to be approached and or confronted by a local farmer , if you are up to no good... no need to confron just follow and get description ,but nowadays no one wants to get involved so prob won't work...maybe if more people made more effort to get to know their neighbours and made an effort to be more approachable by your neighbours...

In my hood, we do this all the time. We all watch for any suspicious vehicles that we don't know and ask them outright if they are lost or whatever. I have taken many pics of vehicles and license plates and I always try and make sure the people in the vehicles see me take them. I have had a couple ask why i'm taking pics and I just say "for the police in case anything happens that shouldn't". Never had any problems!

raab 10-11-2017 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB_AOL (Post 3641411)
It all comes down to manpower.
It's easy to say "here's a solution", but when you think about the logistics. 4-6 people per night. How big of area do they "patrol?". Basically comes down to the same problem as the LEO's, can't be everywhere.

Many communities already have "Citizens on Patrol", and it's strictly a roving neighbourhood watch that calls the RCMP if they see anything suspicious. That is a much better idea than putting untrained civilians in the line of fire, and getting them to arrest someone.

Oh, and allowing someone who has basically zero tactical arms training to be allowed to use guns as "force" is asking for trouble. Not to mention the majority of police training is defusing a situation w/o the use of force (or implying force).

Where did I say untrained? They would all be trained, and it would most likely take a year to get them to the point where they'd be ready. Just like fire departments. Fire departments can't just send people into house fires without training.

As for defusing the situation, the best way to defuse a situation is for the criminal to think that you will follow through with your actions if they dont listen. If you show up with an RCMP officer and a team of guys fully outfitted with tactical gear that they know how to use. I think you have a good chance of defusing a situation.

As for area it could work the same as the municipal fire departments. Where each department would cover an area, but they could call in other departments if the situation called for it or they didn't get enough guys responding.

raab 10-11-2017 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Hardin (Post 3641416)
A good thought but, it wouldn't work for the same reason that they pulled Auxiliary Constables from going on patrol with regular members (liability). Also, who wants to go into a dangerous situation for free? I can't see the RCMP arming civilians to assist them on routine matters.

It's not up to the RCMP. It would fall under the Alberta Solicitor General. Basically all it would take is for the volunteers to be sworn in as peace officers after passing their training.

As for pay, I will say, two weeks ago one of my neighbors had a gun pulled on them as they tried to stop a thief in their yard. A couple days ago 3 of my neighbors were out in the early morning chasing thieves out of their yards with firearms. The RCMP were over an hour away at the time. We also just had an armed robbery in town.

So for me personally I'd volunteer, because I know just having the option will be a BIG deterrent to crime in rural communities. I also dont want to see any of my neighbors get hurt, or end up going to jail because they shot a criminal. I work nights as well, and would like the option in the community in case my wife and kids are ever in trouble.

I think many rural residents would agree with me, but I'm not sure. So thats why I asked here, Im willing to start petitioning the government for it. If there is enough support from other rural residents.

Drewski Canuck 10-11-2017 02:07 PM

Proactive, not Reactive
 
Your Proposal of a "Posse" is interesting, but it only suggests an "arrest force".

By then, its too late, as the RCMP have identified the Suspect, not prevented the act.

Most Rural Crime is Property Crime of one sort or another, whether its a break in or theft of vehicles.

As many can attest, even if you catch the thief, after the fact, you won't get your stuff back.

Instead, it would make more sense to have more Sherriff patrols on rural areas, at night, especially Cabins that are seasonal use only. This will not be cheap, but cheaper than an RCMP Constable.

What I have proposed to the Sergeant at Athabasca Detachment is a Probationary Order of Banishment from the area for 3 years. That way, if the thief is even SEEN in the area, a Warrant goes for his / her arrest.

The reality is that the trouble makers in the rural areas are usually from the area, and as soon as they are let out, are back at it again as soon as they are back in the area. If they are banished, this is real deterrence, as they have no where to go. Jail does not mean anything to these repeat offenders. Not having anywhere to stay does mean something to them.

Drewski

Scott N 10-11-2017 02:14 PM

I keep picture Homer Simpson and his gang of vigilantes walking around with a pillowcase full of doorknobs for some reason. Not that the original idea doesn't have merit, but I can foresee a few problems coming about.

raab 10-11-2017 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewski Canuck (Post 3641503)
Your Proposal of a "Posse" is interesting, but it only suggests an "arrest force".

By then, its too late, as the RCMP have identified the Suspect, not prevented the act.

Most Rural Crime is Property Crime of one sort or another, whether its a break in or theft of vehicles.

As many can attest, even if you catch the thief, after the fact, you won't get your stuff back.

Instead, it would make more sense to have more Sherriff patrols on rural areas, at night, especially Cabins that are seasonal use only. This will not be cheap, but cheaper than an RCMP Constable.

What I have proposed to the Sergeant at Athabasca Detachment is a Probationary Order of Banishment from the area for 3 years. That way, if the thief is even SEEN in the area, a Warrant goes for his / her arrest.

The reality is that the trouble makers in the rural areas are usually from the area, and as soon as they are let out, are back at it again as soon as they are back in the area. If they are banished, this is real deterrence, as they have no where to go. Jail does not mean anything to these repeat offenders. Not having anywhere to stay does mean something to them.

Drewski

Well it was just my original idea to not make the guys to busy if they volunteer. Im all for discussion about what their role could be in the community. I would want these guys having the same powers as any peace officer in the province which means they could easily make an arrest or patrol an area. They could also be first response to any serious calls, like someone pulling a gun on a farmer. Probably take them about 15 minutes to get to any scene , but that beats the hell out of 45 minute to an hour response time for RCMP.

Also as for banishment, they'll just go and take someone elses property. The property theft doesn't really bug me to bad. I can replace my vehicle or garden tractor or whatever else they want to take. But when these idiots are showing up with firearms and pulling them on people, thats where I have the issue. We need harsh sentences for anyone using a firearm as part of a crime. Minimum 10 year sentencing for using or being armed in the act of any crime.

raab 10-11-2017 03:07 PM

Added a poll. If yes gets over 50% support I will move forward with the idea and start looking for a group to help petition the government.

Newview01 10-11-2017 03:10 PM

I voted no.

Too risky, too many rambos will apply.

raab 10-11-2017 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newview01 (Post 3641552)
I voted no.

Too risky, too many rambos will apply.

There will be background checks, everyone will need to take the peace officer training at minimum.

Okotokian 10-11-2017 03:25 PM

So you propose to use them for "apprehension of criminals"? Just stop and think for a moment what that entails. That's the activity that MOST challenges a well-trained police officer. You need to accurately determine whether there is probable cause. You have to be aware of and address the rights of alleged perpetrators. You have to apprehend them while protecting public safety. You may have to deal with a violent or armed individual. I'd say that's absolutely the LAST thing you want well-intentioned amateurs doing. I can't imagine that any case wouldn't get thrown out of court for some legal screw up. People could really get hurt too.

If needed, resurrect some version of rural crime watch.

JB_AOL 10-11-2017 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raab (Post 3641478)
Where did I say untrained? They would all be trained, and it would most likely take a year to get them to the point where they'd be ready. Just like fire departments. Fire departments can't just send people into house fires without training.

That's the thing.. It's a never ending "training", you don't just learn it, and you're done, specifically if it's skills you don't use every day (like LEO's). For Example, think about drugs and how they change on a daily occuranance, how can someone who isn't brought up to speed on recoqnizing drug use and side effects, effectively take down someone. You know that Meth users can take sometimes upwards of 6-10 trained people to be taken down. Guess who's stealing to support their habits?

Volunteer Fire department is much different (no disrespect intended), but as a VFD you are dealing with property, not (usually) humans. I'm simplifying (once again, no disrespect intended), but VFD really only have to "say get out" and possibly administer first aid.

Quote:

As for defusing the situation, the best way to defuse a situation is for the criminal to think that you will follow through with your actions if they dont listen. If you show up with an RCMP officer and a team of guys fully outfitted with tactical gear that they know how to use. I think you have a good chance of defusing a situation.
So you go from Volunteers, to full Tactical gear showing up with an RCMP. I thought the purpose was to help because the LEO's weren't avail?

covey ridge 10-11-2017 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newview01 (Post 3641552)
I voted no.

Too risky, too many rambos will apply.

I voted no as well.

raab 10-11-2017 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Okotokian (Post 3641569)
So you propose to use them for "apprehension of criminals"? Just stop and think for a moment what that entails. That's the activity that MOST challenges a well-trained police officer. You need to accurately determine whether there is probable cause. You have to be aware of and address the rights of alleged perpetrators. You have to apprehend them while protecting public safety. You may have to deal with a violent or armed individual. I'd say that's absolutely the LAST thing you want well-intentioned amateurs doing. I can't imagine that any case wouldn't get thrown out of court for some legal screw up. People could really get hurt too.

If needed, resurrect some version of rural crime watch.

Are you saying people can't get hurt on volunteer fire departments? Of course there is risks, which is why there would be substantial training. The training would also be on how to make an arrest, and insure that there is no legal screw ups. These guys would NOT be amateurs, they would be well trained, but only do it on a part time/on call basis with everything paid for by the municipality. Your looking at 1 to 2 years training before anyone even goes on a call.

The RCMP and EPS have 6 months of depot then ride alongs IIRC. Yes they do it every day, but they also respond to countless other types of calls they need to be trained for. Things like ticketing, domestic disputes, crack heads, fatalities, etc... You could take most of that training out by having your department focus on apprehension and patrol. I wouldn't expect or want these guys ticketing people or responding to domestic disputes/crack heads(Unless requested). Theyre there for first response to any serious call, aiding in apprehension of armed suspects, patrolling, and search and rescue.

CMichaud 10-11-2017 03:44 PM

The RCMP should copy the army reserve model and increase their reserve capacity to address manning shortfalls.

Their current program seems off-target and appears to lack federal coord and policy.

eg: http://bc.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/ViewPage.ac...&contentId=379

RCMP Auxiliary Constables are volunteers who receive a BC Police Act Appointment as a sworn peace officer after completing the approved RCMP and Provincial Ministry of Justice training.

They are required to:
•maintain RCMP security clearance standards, and
•must complete a minimum of 160 hours annually.

Auxiliary Constables:
•are not employees
•are covered by WorkSafe BC and insurance provided by the Province of British Columbia against accidental death and dismemberment, and civil liability.



Training appears to be over-kill and the program is not well advertised/marketed and, as a result, under-utilized.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/news/20...iliary-program

Gray Wolf 10-11-2017 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Okotokian (Post 3641569)
So you propose to use them for "apprehension of criminals"? Just stop and think for a moment what that entails. That's the activity that MOST challenges a well-trained police officer. You need to accurately determine whether there is probable cause. You have to be aware of and address the rights of alleged perpetrators. You have to apprehend them while protecting public safety. You may have to deal with a violent or armed individual. I'd say that's absolutely the LAST thing you want well-intentioned amateurs doing. I can't imagine that any case wouldn't get thrown out of court for some legal screw up. People could really get hurt too.

If needed, resurrect some version of rural crime watch.

All good points, but there's no need to 'resurrect' Rural Crime Watch (a.k.a. Range Patrol). It's alive and well, in many areas.

Before trying to create an amature cop force, time should be spent as a Rural Crime Watch / Range Patrol volunteer. They do a lot of good, and there's lots to be learned there - http://www.ruralcrimewatch.ab.ca/
.

raab 10-11-2017 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB_AOL (Post 3641573)
That's the thing.. It's a never ending "training", you don't just learn it, and you're done, specifically if it's skills you don't use every day (like LEO's). For Example, think about drugs and how they change on a daily occuranance, how can someone who isn't brought up to speed on recoqnizing drug use and side effects, effectively take down someone. You know that Meth users can take sometimes upwards of 6-10 trained people to be taken down. Guess who's stealing to support their habits?

Volunteer Fire department is much different (no disrespect intended), but as a VFD you are dealing with property, not (usually) humans. I'm simplifying (once again, no disrespect intended), but VFD really only have to "say get out" and possibly administer first aid.



So you go from Volunteers, to full Tactical gear showing up with an RCMP. I thought the purpose was to help because the LEO's weren't avail?

Training would take place every week, and several weekends throughout the year. To keep up to date, and keep skills sharp. Would also be joint training with local RCMP officers.

As for tactical, and my comment about working with the RCMP. They could be called in as backup when the RCMP know they are going to apprehend a suspect known for violence or running. Right now they have to call in officers who are off duty or wait until day light to make an arrest in many parts of Alberta. They simply don't have enough officers to execute arrest warrants safely a lot of the time. Im not sure, but wouldnt be surprised if a group like the one I'm describing would have prevented the Mayerthorpe incident.

In saying that I would expect every volunteer to be issued body armor and a helmet at the very least. Given the types of situations they'd be going into I'd want them well protected.

For firearms that would need to be thoroughly discussed. I was thinking they would only be issued Non Restricted weapons. Bolt Action, Semi Auto, and Shotguns. Should be more then enough to apprehend a suspect with a team of individuals who know how to use each.

Okotokian 10-11-2017 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raab (Post 3641586)
Are you saying people can't get hurt on volunteer fire departments?
.

Apples and oranges. Volunteer firemen don't do any of the things I mentioned. I can't recall one ever violating the rights of a citizen or beating or killing them, all things that sometimes happen in arrests even by well-trained policemen.

Rancid Crabtree 10-11-2017 04:16 PM

My solution is
1. End the contract with RCMP. Start Alberta Police force ( staffed so some extent by ex RCMP officers.
2. Deputize and train members of volunteer fire departments. They attend calls quickly and decide if a police officer is needed. This allows officers to focus on crime rather than answering calls that don't require them.
3. Quit charging citizens who are defending themselves against crime.

raab 10-11-2017 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Okotokian (Post 3641607)
Apples and oranges. Volunteer firemen don't do any of the things I mentioned. I can't recall one ever violating the rights of a citizen or beating or killing them, all things that sometimes happen in arrests even by well-trained policemen.

Dont you live in the city?

covey ridge 10-11-2017 04:46 PM

If I was a police officer wanting to make an arrest, I would want back up from police officers. If I was suspecting a violent confrontation making the arrest I would want back up by a trained swat team.

If the reason for arrest develops quickly there might be no time to notify and get those volunteers in position. If there is time to plan, I would want real police officers.

Okotokian 10-11-2017 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raab (Post 3641609)
Dont you live in the city?

No. A town, with a volunteer component in the fire department. Not sure what your point is.

sgill808 10-11-2017 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott N (Post 3641506)
I keep picture Homer Simpson and his gang of vigilantes walking around with a pillowcase full of doorknobs for some reason. Not that the original idea doesn't have merit, but I can foresee a few problems coming about.

Yes this is also what I pictured. To the extent of supplying their own knobs.

I think this discussion is just going to lead to "well if it's dangerous apprehending criminals, shouldn't we be allowed to carry firearms." Don't say I didn't warn you.

Chewbacca 10-11-2017 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rancid Crabtree (Post 3641608)
My solution is
1. End the contract with RCMP. Start Alberta Police force ( staffed so some extent by ex RCMP officers.
2. Deputize and train members of volunteer fire departments. They attend calls quickly and decide if a police officer is needed. This allows officers to focus on crime rather than answering calls that don't require them.
3. Quit charging citizens who are defending themselves against crime.

1. Seems to work for Ontario
2. Good idea.
3. This is the best thought. Add a real risk to the crime. The way it stands now you catch them red handed and they say prove its yours.

Selkirk 10-11-2017 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by covey ridge (Post 3641623)
If I was a police officer wanting to make an arrest, I would want back up from police officers. If I was suspecting a violent confrontation making the arrest I would want back up by a trained swat team.

If the reason for arrest develops quickly there might be no time to notify and get those volunteers in position. If there is time to plan, I would want real police officers.

Exactly !

As in real, live, fully trained, official, police officers! Not a couple of local, trigger happy Rambo Yahoos, who managed to scrape through a few courses on the weekends.

And yes, I live in the country.

And yes, I voted 'No!'

Selkirk


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