I'm not sure. No groups were named.

I didn't ask and no groups were named by the fellow I got the information from. I honestly don't have a clue.

Well said sir,
I don’t know why we as residents are even considering these options. I will only consider restrictions to us until AFTER the non-residents are restricted first. Non-residents have a much higher success rate (~55%) opposed to residents (~4%) – so it only make sense to restrict them first as you will be reducing harvest by affecting the fewest number of people, a win win.

I really can't believe what I am reading! If its truly about healthy sheep populations why are they meeting with stake holders and not bioligists! Follow the money is right.

So why are we allowing non residents then as they are killing the majority of the sheep?

Would it be AGMAG?

Alberta Bowhunters Association
Alberta Fish & Game Association
Hunting For Tomorrow
Alberta Professional Outfitters Society
SRD (Game Management & Enforcement)
Tourism & Parks
Pheasants Forever
Wild Sheep Foundation (Alberta)
Alberta Association of Municipal Districts & Counties
Alberta Beef Producers
Alberta Chapter of the Wildlife Society
Delta Waterfowl Foundation
Ducks Unlimited Canada

I know that one of the many proposals/ideas they are looking at is outfitter tags south of the Bow. They want to take some pressure off the West Central areas, and this, they believe, may help. I'm also told that outfitter allotment reductions are NOT an option. The Gov't can't afford to buy them out at market value and there would apparently be 'serious legal issues' if they were reduced in any other way.

It would definitely help to have some true clarity on what SRD's target strategy would be for provincial sheep. I would think that putting sheep on a draw everywhere, while it would limit the number of individuals hunting a wmu each season, wouldn't noticeably reduce the number of sheep shot each season and instead could possibly increase the harvest success in some wmu's. Those drawing a tag would likely hunt harder given they know they won't be able to go out for a few more years REGARDLESS of whether they harvest a sheep. An optimistic 3-4 year wait based on draws wouldn't be much different than lengthening the current waiting period of 2 years if one harvests a ram but would would definitely reduce resident hunter opportunities in general. I wonder how many of the people purchasing general trophy sheep tags put in more than one or two trips or a week in most of the areas, especially those with more difficult access. I know guys who buy a tag, put in a couple weekends and that is it for the season. Bought a tag (elevating hunter numbers) but really haven't spent many days out, so their opportunity for a successful harvest is low. I bet a lot of purchasers of sheep tags fall into that kind of scenario.

As others have mentioned, non-resident oppportunity should also decrease, ESPECIALLY if resident opportunity decreases. Is there a way of finding out by wmu what the percentage of total rams harvested is by outfitters? Or what the percentage of success on rams is overall in the province by outfitters each year? If reduced harvest is the goal, and removing the most successful hunting group is the goal, then outfitters unfortunately would fit that group. I don't think that punishing hunters for being successful is the answer though.

Also, the wait based on age class of the harvested ram doesn't make much sense if in one part of the province you can shoot a legal ram that is a few years younger than a legal ram in another. You could end up waiting 5 years instead of 3 (if the waits posted are right), and that makes no sense. I know I will be hunting northern zones for the opportunity to hunt sheep more often if that is the case, but for me most of my hunting enjoyment comes from getting out and enjoying the opportunity.

I would think that changing wmu's to full curl would most likely increase the 'trophy' potential (although any legal ram is a trophy) across the province and would also increase the age class of rams being harvested. Yes, some areas may see broomed off rams that don't meet full curl but those rams also have the ability to pass on a good set of genetics and maybe their offspring won't be as aggressive in brooming off their horns and will be full curl. I don't think this would be the same scenario as finding mostly 5 point bull elk in 6 point zones (sorry to mention the elk in this sheep thread). Full curl regulation still won't address guys shooting non-legal rams. They will just be non-legal rams that are a couple years older, so the harvest of non-legal rams can't be the issue that SRD is trying to resolve.

Easy access into some of the areas definitely sounds like it affects the harvest of sheep in some wmu's. Hate to say it, but maybe there needs to be restrictions on access. I harvested my ram in an area with atv access but have also been in on harvests where atvs were not permitted. I've done multi day backpack trips to get to where I wanted to hunt as well. Never used a horse for hunting, but restricting or reducing their use in some areas would definitely affect sheep harvest levels in many wmus. One thing I always wondered was why sheep season starts on August 25. I like hunting in late August/early September when I sleep in my tent, but have wondered what a later start to the season would do in regards to the number of hunters trying to get sheep. I wonder how many hunters hunt sheep because that is what is open first and once other animal seasons open up don't ever go back out for sheep.

Those are my thoughts for now. Hopefully SRD uses good judgement in their upcoming decisions and have the best interests of sheep and Alberta residents in mind and not the best interests of agencies with money. This is however, the province of Alberta and money seems to talk to this government.

Isn't it great that there is a proposal so the Outfitters/ Non Resident Aliens don't lose any opportunity on Trophy Sheep, yet being bantered to fix the "problem" is longer sit out's, and all resident sheep tags going on draw.

Adding insult to injury the concession that is being looked at for outfitters would put even more pressure on sheep, opening up a resident only area to non-residents.

This is seriously flawed logic, outrageous!

There is no legal issue... If there is a need of a reduction nonresident should be the first to go... Also it is a business... Some times you loss in business. Not my problem. nor the other 2000+ actual sheep hunters... Also up to $30000 ever year they should be alrite from there loss... I am sick of special treatment APOS gets in alberta. They really dont bring in all the money they say they do...

After speaking with SRD, they are adamant about sticking with the 2200 applicant number when calculating wait times for a potential draw. I don't get it. Their own draw summary for 2011 clearly shows that we had 11,829 people apply for the five sheep draws we had this year, how do they calculate we'll see an 85% reduction in applicants when we add more draws? This isn't rocket science. I'm not sure why they are so intent on selling the stakeholders on a draw based on information that is this innaccurate. I'd suggest that all people that are members of any of the working groups in AGMAG let their Board and members know they are being sold a bill of goods based on some very inaccurate information. I was told that they viewed 2200 as a best case scenario. Unfortunately, the facts and history say that 11,829 is the best case scenario....speculation says it will be worse. I really hope this was just an error in the data they used and there is no other agenda here but they sure aren't willing to admit either......:angry3:

Does anyone see any similarity to the moose draw? Years ago when they planned to introduce the moose draw there was a big uproar...in the end the draw started, hunting was not limited by subsistence hunters and outfitter tags were not cut...meanwhile our wait times for moose tags grow exponentially...thereby creating more pressure on the zones up north...thereby creating longer wait times for the draws up north...I am glad that I have had the opportunity to hunt in my early years because soon the only opportunity to hunt sheep will be once in a lifetime....

Yes that sure sounds like they are really trying to push this though. I just dont understand how people can have there eyes closes so much....Anybody that sheep hunts know that a huge amount ofd people apply for tags that dont even hunt sheep....The numbers speak for them self... Almost 12000 applicants and only 2200 tags bought annually... Pretty simple math to me. 12000 applicant means we will be waiting 7+years just to have a chance to draw a tag... Also this does not mean you will kill one either...Than another 7+ year wait.... I agree with the last post it will probably turn into a once a life tag.... To bad outfitters still will have a free run like always...Same guy will come up every year and kill a ram and resident get screwd again.......:angry3: And we wonder why there is a poacher problem in our province...:rolleye2:

Haha ya wow if they actually think that 2200 is the number, they are sadly mistaken. Unfortunatly, the 2200 people are just the guys that buy a tag each year from the sounds of it. Several hunters apply in a high-odds draw for the mere chance to have a good successful sheep hunt, yet dont buy a sheep tag every year. If they put more and more on draw, more of these guys would spread out their applications and you'd see those draw numbers stay right up near that 11,000 mark. Uggh....why doesnt SRD wake up and see this??

In any event, it sure seems like a lot of solutions to a problem that hasnt really been identified and that dont address any problems that they ARE trying to identify....

Man I cant wait to chase some Stones sheep in the upcoming years....:scared0015:

Sounds more like 10-11 years hunters will be waiting based on 1150 tags....if the number of applicants doesn't increase from the current 11,829....I suspect it will....considerably. History tells us that.

Yes you are rite.... We get screwd if that happens... So if we get this crap what do outfitters get???? Or sorry what dont they get...:scared:

I've asked that question but haven't got an answer yet. It definitely begs asking though.

I am with you... Stones in the near future for me as well.... Can still come and hunt all we have here... Just not sheep... sounds like that is going to be the case anyway.

The real deal is if we go in a draw of this magnitude why are outfitter even outfitting for sheep.... I smell APOS is one of the major steakholders on this big push...:mad0100:

there is a legal issue! failure after failure in the management of OUR wildlife and natural resources.

failure to protect the caribou.
failure to protect the grizzly
failure to protect bull trout
failure to protect bighorn sheep
failure to protect watersheds
failure to protect natural areas
failure to protect ecological areas
failure to control ferral populations
failure to provide necessary monies
failure to protect the rights and privileges of it's residents.


you have more than enough reasons to haul them into court,do it...

X2

If they go through with this it will be a sad sad state for Alberta sheep hunters. I know I've sent in my questions and stated my outrage by these proposals-wheater you sheep hunt or not you should do the same because this could be just the beginning.

Ok. I will bite. You have it as a resident we could. As an outfitter they loose tags as there is a lack of tags for them. There is no legal leg to stand on. I don't care what they payed. In business you win some you loose. Unless you are apps. Our government bendsover for them. Maybe we should sue them both for missmanagement and conflict of interest. I don't know. QUOTE=Nait Hadya;1222260]there is a legal issue! failure after failure in the management of OUR wildlife and natural resources.

failure to protect the caribou.
failure to protect the grizzly
failure to protect bull trout
failure to protect bighorn sheep
failure to protect watersheds
failure to protect natural areas
failure to protect ecological areas
failure to control ferral populations
failure to provide necessary monies
failure to protect the rights and privileges of it's residents.


you have more than enough reasons to haul them into court,do it...[/QUOTE]

So any chance this is being pushed through by the "strong" AFGA group from down south that originally started it a couple of years ago?

Please explain: what group? What did they propose?

Huntnut, make sure everyone you write knows that the government is using inaccurate numbers in their draw scenario. It's a travisty what they are doing. I could understand them accidentally overlooking the actual number of draw appluicants that we currently have but not to recognize their mistake and correct it really only leads one direction that I can see.

Oh I made sure of that.

I can't find it but a year of two ago there was a 30+ page discussion on this very thing. Turns out that an AFGA group from southern Alberta came up with this proposal.
As 209 said earlier- I think that there is a fox in the hen house.

IIRC (and I often don't) a club from the pass put forward a resolution about lengthening the wait time for sheep (3-5 years; I think it started at 5 and then it was modified to 3 at conference where, I might add it was voted down).

I think what we have here is an extreme escalation of those original proposals to address perceived problems with sheep.

Clubs put forward resolutions (that are submitted by individual members) to the Zone, who then forward them to the AFGA for ratification. Many proposals are made every year, and many of them are rejected. I wouldn't say that just because a group decides to forward a resolution, it is in full support of it; maybe they think it is a topic that NEEDS to be discussed at the Association level.

If this group is trying to influence the AGMAG outside of the AFGA process, then I think we have an issue. Is there any evidence of that?

None that I have-but I don't think that SRD came up with this all by themselves.

According to SRD the draw suggestion came from stakeholders in AGMAG, SRD is just the one that put the info together on what a draw would like like....through rose coloured glasses!