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I used ft/lbs when comparing the Creedmoor (143gr eldx .293 SD) to the 308 (178gr eldx .268 SD), and used the 1000ft/lb minimum along with the 1500fps minimum as a guideline for what I figured would be an approximate max distance for the bullet to function as designed on deer sized game. At 500yds the creed is still is traveling about 2030fps and had about 1308ftlbs of force using 143gr eldx based on a 24” barrel, the 308 was traveling at 1846fps and had 1346ft/lbs of force. I got my information from hornady’s website. I think it makes a good comparison between the two. https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/r...sion-hunter#!/ https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/r...sion-hunter#!/ |
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Not a bad comparison Kurt. I like to see actual numbers. With the 143 getting heavy for Caliber, I’d like to see a heavier 30 cal bullet used to compare the two. But I do realize lots of guys don’t reload. For example lots of guys over on LRH forum run 215 Berger in a 308. Friend of mine shoots the 225 ELD-M out of his 308. Really changes the numbers when you load for the heavies. This really all boils down to everything has a limit. Stay within what the gun can do and it will work. I like to use a higher impact velocity of 1800 fps to determine my max range. I feel it’s a safer bet for expansion. But if guys are getting good results on game with 1500 fps, who am I to argue.
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What’s the oal on a 225gr 308 bullet? That’s gotta be scraping the mag box, lol. The 1500fps/1000ft/lb ratio is just sort of a common number I’ve seen used. Personally I doubt I’d shoot anything over 400yds with a Creedmoor. Admitting to your actual shooting ability is a bigger factor than the cartridge. I’m pretty sure my rifles exceed my ability under most Hunting conditions, and I’m ok with admitting that. |
I know all my Rifles out do my capabilities! The Creed in the right hands will go way farther than 400. My 6.5x47 with a 130 Berger is good out to 750 yds on deer size game. That’s were I hit 1800 fps and just under 1000 ft-lbs. never tried it. But would under ideal conditions. I’ll look into the overall length on the 225 gr load.
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Two option for seating bullets long for 308 Winny's
Single feed by hand, or convert long action to handle the bullets,,, the majority F Class group of shooters feed singles,,, that allows us to set bullet to JAM,,, or just off the lands for jump. Sometimes I load long or short for my sporter unit. My Ought 6 allows me to seat long past Sammi spec,,, it allows for only a few more grains of charge. Of course this for the longer bullets. |
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That’s why the Creed is so popular. Great factory ammo and lots of factory rifles. Nothing wrong with that at all. Had Lapua had a fancy/catchy name for the 6.5x47 with factory ammo and companies producing guns, I think it would of been way more popular. I’m ok with the x47 not being as popular as the Creed. I don’t mind having a gun that most don’t have.
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Comparing the 6.5 CM to my hunting cartridge would be laughable at best .
The bottom line however is that at 300 yards ( which is the max distance I shoot my favourite hunting rifle at) makes no difference at all as far as terminal ballistics go . Fir hunting purposes a flat shooting cartridge is a moot point as my rifle us accurate at the ranges I shoot it at and I use a range finder for the longer distances My service rifle competitions I competed in would disallow this cartridge in my class as well. So it comes down to match shooting . I know full well what my 308’s and .223’s are capable of in my chosen discipline but I am not about to compare anything until I get at least 500 to 1,000 rounds through the Creedmoor - two or three 5 round targets are not enough to form an opinion on anything as far as I am concerned Cat |
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Friends 225 eld load for his FTR rifle. Barrel was throated to seat bullet out farther. COAL of 3.148” 9 twist Bartlein 30”, 2530 fps. 500 yds is 1973 fps with 1945.1 ft-lbs. 1000 yds is 1511.6 fps with 1141.5 ft-lbs. turns the 308 into a 1000 yd big game gun. Not buying one like that off the shelf. But that’s the fun part of building your own gun to your specs. Sure gets expensive though.
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Same for me, no need for me to ammo when I can make my own.
Yes, if people want to buy ready made ammo, those options are out there. If I load long, no big deal since I have time to throw in the next round, if I'm hunting,,, I run then stock. Both work fine. I do like the long seated bullets for competion,,, a couple of feet faster out of the 32" pipe. What a dream to shot, Ha. My hunting partners said I'm easy to spot coming up the cut line with the land canon. Ha. Plus I can use the long pipe as a flag pole. Oh Canada, LA LA LA LA LA. |
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Yes that's correct, our 308's are a twin to what Bell used, they are very capable of harvesting elephant and big game here in our Americas,,, might be wize to practic the Bell shot like we do at the farm on cattle. Ha
Good and close between the ears,,, or slip one up from the back side. Yuppers, find a rifle and cartrage that suits your needs and get at it,,, 243, Grendel, 6.5, 25/06, 270, 308, or old school Ought 6,,, and many other awesome calibers. Good times come to folks that enjoy the great outdoors and share in it with like minded people. Ye Ha. |
https://www.landtechnik-online.eu/oj...nload/717/1193
Hopefully the link works. While it may not be apples to apples, force exerted into the skull was my main concern when choosing a caliber for mobile butchering. |
We took care of our own cattle dispatching at our feed lot for years, now we higher it out.
Our butcher takes care of the full meal deal. About 20 to 40 ft, a quick whistle as the steer looks him down,,, the small pop from the 22-250 head long drops them instantly. Mine you that's he's pretty fast with the knife to finishing things fast. X the ears to eyes,,, lights out. I final finished the Bell story,,, I bet he wished he could of lived longer to see his dream come true. This is what he wrote in his last days: However, if he had to do it all over again with a modern rifle he would choose a Winchester Model 70 in .308 Winchester loaded with homogenous bullets and sighted with a ghost ring rear aperture sight. Even Bell knew that better cartrages were been offered, the 308 would of been one of those cartrages back in those days. Whoops, forgot to add,,, Bell needed more than 1 shot to put most elephants down,,, it took 1200 rounds to dispach 800 of them. |
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Andrew, I’m so aware of all that and agree with most of it. Some pretty key stuff though you’re wrong. Penetration doesn’t happen without impact velocity and sd...bullet construction plays its part. Well aware that fmj for elephants is extreme needs, skulls etc. Well aware that our game we prefer the results of controlled expansion bullets...we aim for the softer bits usually and much smaller animals. You will not be able to teach me something here as I feel like you’re just getting started, no offence meant. Greater energy and diam. may give you bit bigger holes and wound channels. But penetration can suffer if you don’t keep that sd up. |
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As for it being part of the Sectional Density calculation this is again false. Sectional density is a unitless number defined by the frontal area and mass of the projectile. Nothing to do with Energy, Momentum, or Velocity. Quote:
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In the end nobody is really disagreeing that the 6.5's are not a good option for most of Albert's big game. The vast majority are just annoyed of the over evaluation of them in these threads. Combine that with some questionable information/facts presented. Sprinkle on some argumentative stubborn defenders, and you get an absolute poop show. |
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Well the misinformation and misunderstanding is an issue. So that’s part. Momentum and energy are present but aren’t the important factors in determining penetration ability. A needle vs a baseball.
I don’t use bell as an example of what we should do. I use the data as example of what the numbers really mean and what numbers to actually use for comparison and determining what will work for you. It’s about educating. We keep teaching energy and momentum...mostly energy, as gospel and a huge deciding factor. When it’s useless factor in predicting likely performance. |
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I hate computers!!:budo:. Cat |
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Try a needle vs a needle. I can balance a needle on my hand and not be harmed. If I push on that balance needle it will penetrate through my hand. Exact same needle Exact same starting velocity. What forced the needle into my hand? |
One needs to be wize choosing numbers and math when it comes to hunting and shooting forums.
That's why I would never call this out on a public forum. If a person flip flops back and forth with in their own math,,, then credibility goes out to door. I remember some of it from my old school days,,, I put it to rest when I bought my first 30/06,,, then I forgot all about once I jumped into the world of Magnum. Ha. The boxes of ammo came factory with horse power stamped on them,,, no math required. LOL |
Lol, no flip flopping, trying to acknowledge that long ago I looked at all the energy momentum and other theories. Bullets are needles. The higher sd given same impact velocity goes deeper. Doesn’t matter the difference in energy.
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