Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum - Too much 45-70

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- - Too much 45-70 (http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=346658)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puma (Post 3802017)

I thought we men were discussing the .45/70 Government round ?

Does your wife know you were shooting her gun ? :)

Puma

Is this the same thing you men discuss in the doctors office :sHa_sarcasticlol:

Quote:

Originally Posted by rugerfan (Post 3802018)

Shooting a creedmoor is like doing crossfit, you're required to tell everyone whether it's relevant or not.

Or a 45-70 and cry about how bad the recoil was--

Quote:

Originally Posted by rugerfan (Post 3802018)

Shooting a creedmoor is like doing crossfit, you're required to tell everyone whether it's relevant or not.

lmfao....dam crossfitters:sHa_sarcasticlol:

Just saying........
If it's to much load then maybe try shooting from other positions.
Bench shooting is not as forgiving as from a standing or kneeling position.
Besides I the field you won't be sitting at a bench.

I regularly shoot over 100 rounds of hot 500 grains.
Yeeeeee!!!!! Haaaaaaa!!!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick284 (Post 3802034)

Wanna have a treat :shark: try some of those HSM, 420gr +P, Bear Loads.
1740fps at the muzzle from my 18.5” guide gun.

Then there’s these bad boys I wanna load up.

https://i.imgur.com/44FytC8.jpg

Until then I’m just as happy to keep shooting 300’s at 1800fps

Those bear loads are killer with the guide gun, not a fun load to shoot! Unless you like heavy recoil.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick284 (Post 3802033)

Wanna have a treat :shark: try some of those HSM, 420gr +P, Bear Loads.
1740fps at the muzzle from my 18.5” guide gun.

Then there’s these bad boys I wanna load up.

https://imgur.com/a/uhKAN9N

Yes! And nope. Never again .....:scared0018:
Two boxes came with a GG i was picking up for my brother. I figured a finders fee of a box at the range was adequate. Two shots and i (and shoulder) was done.

When I shoot 45-70, all I shoot is 405 cast with a gas check. The combined weight of lube and gas check puts them on the scale at 420 grains.
In all the years of hunting with them, I have never retrieved a bullet from game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 303carbine (Post 3803138)

Same preference here.
My BIL recovered one from a beef I put down for him.
I didn't tell him what gun I had I was using and he found the bullet a out 3' back from the entrance hole it the head.
405 from the Bullet Barn.

In 1983 I shot a cow moose which was approx 100 yds away, slight downhill , quartering slightly towards me. The 300 grain Hornady hollow point entered the shoulder and exited the off side ham. It surprised me the amount of penetration Elmer Keith must have smiled .

There's a reason that in the Buffalo hunting days that there was a saying:

Don't pick a fight with Buffalo Hunters, ain't no such thing as cover.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fps plus (Post 3803386)

Elmer never smiled when shooters choose jacketed bullets, big lead bullets only.:sHa_sarcasticlol:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 303carbine (Post 3803785)

Elmer never smiled when shooters choose jacketed bullets, big lead bullets only.:sHa_sarcasticlol:

May want to do a little more reading

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick284 (Post 3802034)

When you get to reloading those 460's don't overlook Benchmark as a possible powder. It gets some remarkable velocities without any pressure signs or problems in my Marlin's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by YYC338 (Post 3804948)

When you get to reloading those 460's don't overlook Benchmark as a possible powder. It gets some remarkable velocities without any pressure signs or problems in my Marlin's.

I’m already running Benchmark with my 300’s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick284 (Post 3804954)

I’m already running Benchmark with my 300’s.

And it will be your friend with the 460's too I'd bet

Quote:

Originally Posted by YYC338 (Post 3804960)

And it will be your friend with the 460's too I'd bet

It’s already my friend in the .223, .358, .22-250(40’s), and the 300’s in the 45/70, I see no reasons why it won’t perform with the 460’s.

Have to find my recipe. I looked into higher velocity vs. lower and as above posters noted - the 45/70 is a Locomotive. No point going over 1800 fps.

In my research I found some testing by Garret Ammo and have built myself a nice 405gr flat nose (hard cast or soft depending on need) backed with IMR4198 (have to double check my grains but I am 1.5gr past recommended but still way under 'Hot'). It's rolling about 1650-1750 fps. Its smooth, accurate and hits like a sledge hammer thrown from a speeding train.

Haven't gone hunting yet with it (still loving my .308 world) but it would be a great challenge. hmmmm.....

>>>READ ME<<<

Quote:

PENETRATION: THE 45-70 & 458 MAGNUMS
The following article is based on bullet penetration test results as measured in water-saturated penetration materials (wet newspapers). Water is the primary substance of life, and constitutes about 90% of the content of all mammals. I have observed that some "testers" have chosen wood boards or dry newspapers for penetration testing material, and this is a very poor choice, which in no way simulates the characteristics of a bullet impact with animal flesh. Wood tends to channel the bullet path, and is less demonstrative of the terminal instabilities inherent to non-expanding bullets when impacting game animals, and is thus an inferior material for the testing of bullet penetration characteristics. Water-saturated penetration materials such as newspapers or ballistic gelatin are far superior with regards to their ability to demonstrate the terminal instabilities that typically occur when non-expanding bullets impact live animal flesh. - Randy Garrett

There are few things in the world of ballistics less well understood than the issues relating to comparative penetration. It is commonly believed that the faster one drives a solid bullet, the deeper the penetration. We see this all the time in the various attempts, via new calibers, to achieve higher velocity for improved performance on heavy game. The current rage among big bore shooters seems to be the 458 Lott, since it achieves a good 200-300 fps higher velocity than the 458 Winchester Magnum. It is claimed that the new 458 Lott is an improvement over the 458 Winchester Magnum since its higher velocity supposedly results in more lethal impact-effect and deeper penetration. This, it is claimed, is just the ticket for busting the heaviest game. Of course, the new 458 Lott also achieves greater kinetic energy as a result of its higher velocity, and this is also a convincing characteristic for those brave souls in pursuit of the heaviest game.

Despite all the impressive "science" deployed to reinforce the assertion that higher speed projectiles are more capable of inflicting the deep penetration and impact-effect required to reliably anchor heavy game, one finds that these assertions simply do not withstand common sense, repeatable penetration testing. In fact, if one conducts these tests, one finds that there is nothing that can be observed which supports the assertion that the faster one drives non-expanding solids the deeper they penetrate.

Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.

What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop.

Fortunately for all of us who shoot the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70's "inability" to achieve the velocity with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great.

- Randy Garrett

Grab a handful of this

Attachment 147123

Hang on....:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coho911 (Post 3808801)

The Garrett article has been around for awhile and he certainly has more experience than most with the 45-70.
I still think there's a place for velocity in the 45-70 (within safe parameters). There's also a reason the .458 win is carried by more PH's in Africa than the 45-70.
A little expansion isn't a bad thing and if it was penetration above all else, we'd all shot FMJ bullets.
I don't think a 400gr bullet at 1900-2000fps (jacketed or cast) is going to suffer from under penetration on anything we shoot in North America. Also. most game isn't shot at the muzzle so 1900 becomes 1700 rather quickly in the 45-70 anyway.

If you spend time on the Marlin owners forum, there seems to be cult who take pride in shooting game at the lower velocity the better. To each his own but if I had a 300 WM, why would I take pride in loading it down to 300 savage capabilities.

Now some older rifle designs require reduced loads, but modern Marlins, Brownings, etc. don't require it.